Any university that holds contests for its students to design buildings and then builds those "winners" despite what they should look like standing next to one another is not the university that I want to do a merger study here, free or not. No doubt they'd make a contest of it.
So happy to hear those in Cherry Hill that feel the same way I do. We don't want our high school diluted and there is no tax savings. cherry hill is not here to save merchantville. go to pennsauken for help. you are already half way in the door.
The news article presented the consolidation meeting as being thorough in exploring the opening issues of a merger. Good synopses of events do not appear on this blog readily. One has to waterboard to get good information and if he were to, there is the inevitable "hate" payback.
I expected to see the petitioners name themselves to this commission and they didn't. I was at the meeting on Monday and feel pretty happy with our delegation. Actually I feel much more comfortable with this groups ability to negotiate and horse trade than the group proposed by council last year.
This group contains two CEOs, a self made multi-millionaire 50 year resident, a tough Republican black woman and a Wharton MBA. I think they'll do just fine.
Also posted this link at the Petitioner's Facebook Group: Merchantville Study for Consolidation Watch this page for constant updates as the Study process progresses.
I also posted it at the Merchantville, NJ facebook page but it was deleted soon after. This will not be a reliable source of information about the Study process.
Its worth contesting some of Mayor North's statements in the latest Sun article.
Mayor North Said:
North said he had hoped to see a different group representing Merchantville, one with more overall knowledge of how government works.
“They’ve never been on council and they are not familiar with things like debt service and tax rates,” North said.
This ranges from incorrect, to simply untrue. Of course Mr. Perno is on Council right now and has a firm grip on these issues. Mr Wilkinson is a former Councilman. These gentlemen know how government works. And this is where our Commission is much more balanced than the one proposed by Mayor North. In Ms. Hicks we have a former School Board member who is also a human resources expert, and in Mr. James we have former teacher, and Ms Birmingham a downtown business owner and long term resident. Our Commission is prepared to see these issues from both sides, as the government and as citizens, and from the schools viewpoint as well. Our Commission is better qualified for the task, and is more representative of the diversity of our community.
According to this article, Merchantville council is planning a special session to withdraw symbolic support for this commission. What a waste of time. Why insult the citizens who agreed to serve?
I see that Cherry Hill has the current school board president on the commission, was our school board president asked to serve? If she was and declined did you group ask any other member?
It appears (Perception) that there was much tomfoolery when the council appointed a committee and your group was extremely unhappy, Cherry Hill did nothing, law was changed, your group appointed people, then low and behold Cherry Hill finally appointed their commission members. Gotta tell you the perception here is that your commission is trying to control this process, and my problem with this is I did not elect a single one of the commission members. As much as I would like to believe that this process will be fair and impartial, I just can't. But time will tell.
JAMR, Re. your question about the Merchantville BOE Chair Ed Bohn, one of the Commissioners proposed by Mayor North was approached, but he declined.
There was no "Tomfoolery" as you put it. The Petitioners were on the sidelines once Council passed their own resolution. It was their study to run. But by my observation they took steps that alienated Cherry Hill and ensured they would not get together. At the 24 January 2011 Council Meeting Mayor North reported on a conference call between the two Mayors and DCA. He reported that on the call Cherry Hill Mayor Platt expressed reservations about Council's choice of Commissioners. I explained my take on what happened between Council and Cherry Hill in this comment thread at 7/12/2011 3:57 PM. Mayor Platt pretty much spelled it out to Frank in plain english on that call. Council's response was to do nothing. The eventual fall out of this was the Petitioners were able to finally submit an application many months later.
Control? You say our Commission is trying to control the process? I could get dizzy from the comments here - our Commission is controlling, our Commission is too weak..? Merchantville is so great Cherry Hill wants to steal it, Merchantville stinks why would Cherry Hill want you...? Just crazy stuff coming from polar opposites, and all anonymous posts.
We've proposed smart and dedicated people on the Commission. Their interests are the same as everybody else in town - to have a good outcome for Merchantville.
lavardera: This ranges from incorrect, to simply untrue.
Mr. Lavardera invited us to read what he refers to as "an informative article" in the C.H. Sun and then two comments later he refuted what the young, articulate reporter wrote.
Personally I am impressed with Ms. DiPento's reporting. I know that Mayor North (or as lavardera now calls him, Frank, as opposed to Mr. Mayor, Your Honor or Mayor North as is due to an elected official in the United States) had the opinion that the reporter captured so accurately.
lavardera: Mayor Platt pretty much spelled it out to Frank in plain english
Indeed, "spelled it out". Makes you want to create a convoy to escort Ms. DiPento as she rides her bicycle down Route 70 to report the facts ... and to do it with a solid grasp of our language, which as I remember, is English.
I'll go one paragraph further. Maybe we should send our kids to Philly for basic schooling. The Sun's reporter did a better job covering all sides of the merger issue than all of the adults here on both sides of the issue. Hurray for her!
KT - I've not refuted the reporter or anything she wrote. She quoted and represented what the Mayor told her. My comments are in response to the Mayors statements. You are confused as usual.
What about the suggestion that Merchantville's incoming commission doesn't understand finance, government or debt? So he's calling these five individuals and one alternate incompetent? 2 Ceo's, a CPA, a downtown business owner, 1 lawyer and current council member, a Wharton MBA, etc. This group looks pretty competent in my eyes.
Anon: Three school board members were asked to serve and declined.
Perhaps the three were thinking their efforts would be better spent working on our school rather than studying alternatives.
Camden County Democrats will like this. In an interview not too long ago President Clinton said that the people in an agency cannot think of ways to cut their own programs. The only way to cut is to create another agency to do just that.
Extending Clinton's logic, it seems sensible that those involved in our school and prior Borough officials would not accept invitations to join a consolidation group they believe has a mission unlike their own.
But every rule has its exception and we have one local government official who not only accepted the other-side invitation, he orchestrated it ... which leaves us with the hard thought that Mr. Clinton still could be 100% correct.
"He reported that on the call Cherry Hill Mayor Platt expressed reservations about Council's choice of Commissioners."
It's great to see how much power we are already giving up to Cherry Hill. Is this going to be the norm?
Your group makes accusations about the Mayor and his appointees, I merely am trying to point out the same perception about your choices and how we arrived at them. But your group is too close to see what the perception looks like.
My recollection is that there are nine school board members was each one asked? If not, why not?
For the record I am not impressed with all the commission members chosen by your group, you could have done better, you could have been more open during your selection process. But we are where we are, Just hate it when some people act Holier than Tho.
It's great to see how much power we are already giving up to Cherry Hill. Is this going to be the norm?
No. We've not given up any "Power" to Cherry Hill. Cherry Hill had ZERO input into our proposed Commissioners. We received input from everybody involved in Petitioning. I don't know who you are, but you could have participated if you wished. We were certainly more open than the Mayor making his selections. We consulted with several of his choices. He did not reach out to us.
Cherry Hill has no more power here than Merchantville. If we did not like their Commissioner choices that would be the end of it. We both have that right.
Your group makes accusations about the Mayor and his appointees, ...
I am not making accusations, just offering my own take on why Council failed to gain CH's trust on this. Last fall Pat Brennan's wife Joan broadly criticizes Cherry Hill and its government on her Merchantville Municipal web site, then Mayor North puts Pat Brennan on his Commission. Platt tells him the Commissioner choices are a problem. Mayor North does nothing. No application is formed.
So then Platt did dictate the choice of Merchantville Commissioners.
You did not answer my question if all the Board Members were asked, and if not why not.
I am not trying to put you on the defensive , but merely trying to work through the perception that your choices are the best for Merchantville, and not just the consolidation people.
I, too, did not know about the offering to the public to participate in commission-member selection by the Merch moving forward group. I rarely even see the group's name written anywhere. Lava calls it "we" and nobody else says boo. I used to check back to Gail's comment for the name because she always get such details right but her comment in now on another thread.
I don't do the facebook thing so I am out and there could be hundreds if not thousands of others out too. In fact the best example I can think of on public notice by the group is the announcement of the Merchantville meeting in some church a few hours before the event and in conflict with a Borough meeting (that I attended).
My vote goes to Just A Merchantville Resident for his perceptions.
So then Platt did dictate the choice of Merchantville Commissioners.
Both parties have a mutual right to withdraw. One party exercising that right does not constitute dictating to the other. Mayor North did not respond to Mayor Platt's concerns. No application was formed. Nothing was dictated to Mayor North. Nothing was dictated to the Petitioners.
I'll be happy to respond to your other question when I believe you are ready to stop twisting my answers.
Lots of people volunteered time to the petitioning group. Collecting signatures, dropping flyers, making calls. Many joined up as the process was moving and happening. Anybody with the will and desire to be involved was involved. Everybody in town knew about the petition, and we had lots and lots of people step forward and help. So you are only "out" if you did not put yourself "in". If you missed it I'm sorry, but count your blessings you missed lots of hot days last summer pounding the pavement.
"Three school board members were ask to participate and declined" WOW. Why? remember if the doors to cherry hill EVER open, the doors to MES will be the first to close. you have heard what has been said about the school in the past . the CH board did a walk through in 1999 and found it to be unacceptable for CH school board needs. Nothing has changed .
lava: "Mayor North did not respond to Mayor Platt's concerns"
Do you happen to know what Platt's concerns were? Other than he did not want to work with one of our former mayors appointed to our consolidation commission?
Merchantville COUNCIL selected our consolidation commission and then waited more than a month for C.H. to form its commission to work with ours. Mr. Platt failed to do that and so our Council recinded our resolution.
lavardera said "Lots of people volunteered time to the petitioning group. Collecting signatures, dropping flyers, making calls."
All the middle and upper grade students in our Merchantville School are taught "Main Idea" and "Attention to Detail" in reading instruction.
If any student had read the sentence "I, too, did not know about the offering to the public to participate in commission-member selection by the Merch moving forward group", he or she should be able to answer simple questions about the sentence such as "What selection is "I,Too" writing about?
I'm not sure that Cherry Hill intentionally didn't work with the council group. Even after the legislation passed which clarified the "hibrid" application, it still took Cherry Hill several more months to put together a committee. This is all conspiracy theory stuff. I don't think the Cherry Hill group, much like Merchantville's government, is adequately competent to pull of a conspiracy.
If the "Wharton MBA" refers to me, then I have to clear the air for the sake of my own sense of integrity.
What was originally posted was that "our alternate Dan is a Wharton grad"
That's true, I have a BSEcon from Wharton with concentrations in Strategic and Entrepreneurial Mgmt. I have an MBA from Temple.
If it makes you feel better (it probably won't), most of my Wharton classes were crosslisted with the graduate school - we always joked that we got an MBA for a cheaper price. Not that it got us anywhere...
If there's another Wharton grad (MBA) in our group, kudos to us.
You might have some fancy degrees, but I've never heard of you. How long have you lived here? And how do we know that you have Merchantville in your heart? I liked the Mayors recommendations better because they would have put a quick end to this plot.
We have something in common - I've never heard of you either.
I've lived in Merchantville 11 years, and have a child in the Merchantville school. I'm a senior executive working for a firm in Cherry Hill for the last 16 years.
Honestly, I can't say I have "Merchantville in my heart", cause I was born, raised, and schooled in Philly. So, I don't know too much about the petty power struggles in our little borough.
I'm curious about this process, and look forward to the report detailing the ramifications of a merger (sorry for that long word with all those syllables - that's my fancy schmancy degree influence)
"I liked the Mayors recommendations better because they would have put a quick end to this plot."
The quick end being a total rejection of the process??? No bias there.
Sorry, my reply to Anonymous probably came out a little dickish. The "I've never heard of you" probably ranks up there with "Do you know who I am?" as irritating comments (to me). I'm not a fan of conceit.
Once the committee is made official, I'd be happy to discuss my skills and qualifications as a member (alternate) of the committee.
Okay fancy guy. So you have a kid in the school and you've lived here a short time. You should recuse yourself, because you're already biased. It's a good thing your just an alternate Mr Senior executive. People like you come and go in this town. Wait till you've been here a bit longer before you feel so entitled to study our town.
And here I was trying to apologize for being snippy. I didn't realize having a child made me biased. My family is fortunate to be able to send our kid wherever when the time comes, so I'm not desparate for a Cherry Hill school. I have no motivation for or against the merger.
I didn't realize there was a minimum residency requirement to serve on the committee, or for anything for that matter. How long have you lived in Merchantville? Since you hide behind anonymity, do you even "bleed Merchantville" as you posed earlier?
I should have known I'd be flamed for being honest. You've proven to me why blogs are a waste of time and energy.
The point here is that the petitioners group was unhappy with the Mayor's choices and subsequent Council approval, this was somehow mysteriously parlayed into Cherry Hill's Mayor Platt voicing his dissapproval of our towns elected officials choices, which mysteriously led to a new law being written, and a new commission being selected by a group of residents mysteriously hand picked by that group who now mysteriously has the approval of Cherry Hill. I am sure glad Cherry Hill did not dictate who our commissioners should be, and I am sure glad that the current commissioners were selected in the open and not behind closed doors. The more I look at this the more I see problems with this whole process. I have not for or against a feasability study, but if one were to be done I would want it done by our elected group of officials who answer to me the voter. One lone councilperson on the current commission does not suffice and his stance is already suspect.
I do not think the consolidation group did an excellent job in selecting commissioners, and I do not like the law that was written just for this purpose. With that I will wait and see what happens and take whatever actions I see fit based upon the information that flows or doesn't flow from this commission.
What looks like a mystery to you was probably just hard work and persistance. I've stated before that I lean heavily against a merge, but this petition group kept at it every step of the way. No mystery. Some people sit around and spin theories, others get to work.
Welcome, Wharton Dan. And do not apologize for being open. The more we see the better.
I was just telling a helper today that I lament the passing of the man who came to each construction site every week and took home a couple dozen saws to sharpen. Carbide tipped blades put him out of business I suspect. But he is not needed in town or on this blog. More useful to us would be a stone wheel to sharpen all the axes we have to grind.
Still no answer to my earlier School Board question? I guess I'll just be dismissed as an 'Unknown', that would be ashame because I think it is a valid question and one that should be addressed.
JAMR, after your tantrum, no, no more dialog for you with me. Sorry. You take everything I post as fuel for more ridiculous presumptions. If a blog is a town meeting, I don't owe anything to people who come with a hood over their head.
I find it suspicious that our mayor and the Merchantville democrat party are so worried about others overseeing this audit and study. Are they hiding something? I have to wonder about the bank purchase and certain property transactions. Outsiders can't be counted on to sweep dirt under the rug. I only see one insider on this commission. Would have been better to have none, but that's fine. I'm not a huge fan of consolidation, but looking forward to the outside audit.
"no more dialog for you with me. You take everything I post as fuel...people who come with a hood over their head." 7/25 10:32
Hey, JAMR, you are one of us now. The last comment to you is exactly the same as his "shut off" last year. The excuse then was over those who posted anonymously. Apparently now he won't talk to monikers.
You'll have to show name, address and phone number for him to answer -- IF HE HAS AN ANSWER, which is what some have wondered for a year.
Talk to us. We listen. We answer. We have fun, too.
I have been reading this blog for some time. It is very obvious that this merger is not about cost saving. it is about the schools and only the schools. Why doesn't Merchantville get together (merger people, and non merger people) and find a new school solution. It doesn't have to be Pennsauken but maybe Collingswood or another town with similar demographics? Seems like a no brainer to me.
"no school board representation...the omission is very telling."
What is the omission telling you? That school board members believe their time would be better spent improving our educational program and maybe finding an alternative receiving high school, such as Haddon Heights?
Is it reminding you that Merchantville residents elected the school board to run OUR school exclusively?
Does it help you to envision the disharmony that would be created if individual Board members chose to "collaborate" with a study group chosen by petitioners who want a neighboring town to absorb our student population and its tax funding?
Is it telling that Vidkun Quisling was executed for collaborating with the Third Reich in its "Final Solution".
I read on this blog that 3 BOE members were approached, including the current President. All declined. I believe this body contains 2 former BOE members. You don't need to be one of the committee to be involved by the way. BOE members should participate regardless of how busy they are.
why is it telling? are you kidding me? this group is potentially going to make vital, critical decisions about the future of this community including the SCHOOL and there is no present school board representation.
Really?
they have all refused to participate. that doesn't tell you anything?
to me is says they don't want this study or merger to happen. to me it says it is a waste of their time. to me is also says that potentially there is no credibility in this merchantville merger commission. ex school board members will not be helpful. the state of education in 2011 for NJ is like no other time in history.
Good! That is as it should be. They are elected to run OUR school, not to spend time picking another.
If you got hired at General Motors would you then study ways to have Toyota make your cars? How long do you think you would last at GM? I'd guess five minutes.
Back in the mid-1980s young women were enrolling in New Jersey colleges to be eligible for Miss New Jersey in the Miss America Pageant. One girl who enrolled in Glassboro but did not attend classes, won our State title. She was so harassed at the State Fair at Garden State Racetrack she began avoiding close contact with the public. I think her embarrassment was deserved.
In my mind our town residents should admonish our councilman for joining a committee to investigate the possible abolishment of Merchantville. He had the gall to say we cannot afford the municipal services being provided. Do we have to club him over the head to understand that he is a main contributor to high level of services at high cost? He might well spend some Tuesday evening absent from the merger committee to dig up the speed hump and new driveway apron in front of his house to take back for a refund to the Borough. He might well stop throwing up obstacles to a settlement with the TCE developer. He might try to cut some expenditures rather than concrete them over as with the eight inches of concrete all around the firehouse. There are a number of actions he could promote to save our town instead of jogging over to sit next to the big wheels at consolidation meetings.
He should be one WHO DOES NOT "want this study or merger to happen". Why isn't he?
I bet you that when Mayor North put his commission together few declined. The former Vice President of the School Board did agree to be on that commission. So 3 current board members were asked but declined for their own reasons. We know that there are 9 members of the Merchantville School Board. Why were not all the members contacted to be on this new commission? Who knows? Looks like we are not going to get an answer to that either. I think they could have worked a little harder to find someone with current knowledge of the school to be on the commission. Using Ms. Hick’s past tenure of a few months and limited attendance on the school board as an example of representation of the school is just sad at best! Maybe if Mayor Platt had made public his commission earlier people might have felt more inclined to step up. But not knowing whom you are dancing with has never been a good idea!
Cherry Hill’s commission is made up of people with current knowledge of their township and their school district. What in the world do we have? What a mess!
If it went to a vote today in Merchantville what would happen? Just curious as to the opinion of the blog.
From talking to neighbors(St. James, Plymouth, Westminster, Greenleigh crowd) I think it would be a landslide 60-40 to merge. I am being conservative as it could even more lopsided based on my non scientific tally.
I think the merger haters fear this notion.
I have only been here 10 years and have only paid about 100K in taxes. I love that my vote counts as much as these angry lifetimers.
Lets get some thicker skins here folks, whether you are here 6 months or 60 years it really doesn't matter. Although Experience does count for something doesn't it? I am sure if you found some of the School Board members who made the decision to close our High School and enter into a Send Receive with Pennsauken they might just have a different view today.
For the record I never tried to twist Lavardera's comments or pick a fight or go on a rant. I was simply asking what many of us feel are valid questions? They should be easily answered. The old adage "It is what it is" I just want an honest answer to an honest question, that's all.
Failing to be honest is deceitful, we would not accept this from our School Board or Council, or any volunteers on any of the committees. Why should we accept that from Lavardera?
I am not picking the fight Lavardera, you put your comments out there, not me. Maybe you never took a debate class in your life, maybe you don't like people who appear to disagree with you. i am not sure of your reasons but your failure to answer my simple questio, that you obviously have the answer too leaves little faith in my heart that this process will be open, honest, and neutral.
As far as if we voted today, your straw poll is not a good indicator of things to come. People need to hear the issues not simply asked to sign a petition because its the only way our kids will get out of Pennsauken HS.
And if you think the lone councilperson from our town on the Commission is a good thing, you are sadly mistaken, he has not proven one thing to me yet in his tenure on the Council. I believe his claim to fame was speed humps.....ask him sometime how he came to decide where they were going to be put, let's see how honest he is!
I don't really know, would be the answer to your question about the straw poll, if I had to take an educated guess on how my neighbors would vote I would say it would be 70- 30 against a merger.
What would a straw poll reveal if this question were posed: Effective next year bus K-8 children to a school outside of Merchantville, to classes larger than what they are currently in, school taxes would slightly increase.
straw polls mean nothing, thats why they are called straw polls. Issues need to be addressed by a methodical approach with all points of view, and facts revealed. Acting on impulse is never prudent in decisions of this magnitude.
I'm new to town and travel alot for work. I've lived here 3 years. First of all this idea of a blog straw pole is rediculous. Let's just have the study. My neighbors on Poplar, Myrtle, etc. all favor that. The issue isn't just schools and I have no children, but do care about education. Property taxes are killing us. Anything that can be done should be done soon. As far as a petition group selecting the committee, and that being such a problem for good ole boys, I think that's great. As a conservative black man with a long memory, sounds fine to me. How many hands have been in the cookie jar and what will independent folks turn up in their study?
remove your masks before knocking on my office door
Ironic, isn't it? Coming to a blog to complain about masks and announcing that he won't, what?, reveal his "facts"? until everyone says a name.
If a child should tell his teacher that he WON'T read/write until everybody else does, the teacher suspects he CANNOT read/write. So she goes to help him.
Can we do the same? Teach the soul how to express an idea in public?
WestSideVet: As a conservative black man with a long memory...
If you think a partisan group selecting a "non-partisan" committee is a great idea, then your long memory is not nearly long enough.
Why do you think the West Maple Revitalization Task Force worked so hard to get West End residents participating? That's rhetorical. The Task Force sought representation by ALL folks affected by the outcome.
The same effort should have been applied to the group that will influence a change in local government. That is a huge responsibility ... now in partisan hands.
Do you honestly believe that a group of ex mayors would be non partisan with this type of issue? Come on... And how many women or brown folks were on dthat group? Or are they all white men of a certain age? Looks to me like they're the good ole boys that bought an empty bank building. If you've lived here your whole life you might not realize that's not supposed to happen.
There is no big mystery about how the commissioners were selected. Big group of people get together, throw out suggestions, discuss the merits, make phone calls and make house calls, reach out to people on the list. The first calls went out to those who the consensus felt were the best and they were vetted to ensure there was no bias.
As we've said, we asked several school board members, but they were not all asked because other people that we felt were stronger candidates accepted before we even got to ask them.
The overtones of conspiracy here are ridiculous. The Petitioning group did the work to create the application and we were under no obligation to turn Commissioner selection into a publicly advertised process. Yet we were completely open to anybody who contributed to petitioning also contributing to vetting commissioners.
We have nothing to gain from a Cherry Hill merger that everybody else in town has. We are just like you and your neighbors -citizens in this town that want the best for it. A bad deal for Merchantville is a bad deal for all of us and we won't support it. We picked Commissioners that shared that outlook. Accusations of Partisanship are wrong, and obviously coming from people that have already made up their minds against a merge.
So sorry anonymous critics, you'll have to look elsewhere for your conspiracy. My favorite one so far is the one where the Mayor of Cherry Hill was taking marching orders from us group of petition passers. I like that story - it has a real black ops, secret society vibe to it. Do I get to wear sunglasses? :^p
But I seriously look forward to anybody making these far-out who wants to stop by my office and talk about it. I've made that offer before, and they never do. I suspect there is only one or two voices here making a stink and they don't want to reveal that. Otherwise what's there to hide. How come all the dead-set opponents of a study are anonymous?
Wow, bashing on Rosemari Hicks. You can discount her time on the board if you want. Her knowledge in HR was a big factor in bringing her in, and the connection to school board was a plus.
Look, any school board member is welcome and encouraged to be involved in the study process. Even if they don't step forward, the Study Commission will undoubtedly tap their knowledge.
Experts don't have to be on the Commission. This was Mayor North's greatest misjudgment on this. Experts don't need to sit on the Commission, rather they need to be available to the Commission to share their expertise. The most important thing for the Commissioners is an open and unbias mind on the issue. Thats what we have.
For all those claiming that the Petitioners somehow magically made the laws change, these past few articles make it clear that this is a statewide issue. Lawmakers around the State are starting to get very serious about making shared services and mergers happen. We can lead, and choose where we go, or be forced under the threat of lost state aid to take a deal that nobody wants.
no one is questioning that there is duplication. no one is questioning that it makes sense for merchantville to want to merge with another entity.
what we are questioning, and you will see us push back harder and harder,is that the merger study should not be with Cherry Hill. This is a lose lose for us. We cannot (and will not)absorb your students. We have our own concerns with meeting ayp and facilities.
you need to merge with a community where it makes the most sense. it seems to be pennsauken as you are already partially there with shared schools and services. But maybe camden or collingswood would work for your community.
we are mobilizing. with the lack of funding, cherry hill rallying against this merger, and the political infighting, hopefully this effort to merge with Cherry Hill will go no further.
For all those that feel its a good idea to simply resolve the school issue, and that this is really about the school, its not. This is about the budget, and Merchantville's ability to stay viable. Our surplus is almost gone, and Trenton is threatening reduced aid or forced mergers.
Right now the School Board is studying a sending relationship with Haddon Heights. This is a great idea. You may not know that this study is costing in the neighborhood of 40k or our school taxes. I find it very unusual that there is so much outrage expressed by anonymous posters here about spending tax dollars on a Consolidation Study, yet not a peep about the School Study. Curious.
I hope its successful. But lets think a bit about how this may play out. Say we begin sending our grads to Haddon Heights, and say it costs no more than Pennsauken. Thats a good thing. And if its good then perhaps people won't move out of town when their kids hit 8th grade. Now we'll start sending more of our kids to High School. And some may even come out of private school to go to Haddon Heights. All good things. But we have to pay for it. And the budget is topped off right now with the few kids we send to Pennsauken.
So this is a good thing, but realize it means more taxes. And since our other town services are already cut to the bone we face a real estate market where other towns offer better services, and have lower taxes. Which means our property values continue to be depressed, and we continue to pay inordinately high taxes for inordinately low services.
A new sending agreement is great. However it fixes none of the fiscal problems that has brought on the Consolidation Study. People who say its all about the school are wrong.
Anonymous - FYI under current law Merchantville can not merge with Collingswood, or Camden. Those municipalities are not contiguous with Merchantville - they share no borders.
The current legislation proposing forced mergers or reduced aid does not revise this aspect of consolidation law. So Camden or Collingswood - impossible.
And you are completely wrong about Cherry Hill - clearly they are interested, as we have formed an application for a commission with them. If there is some secret opposition, from here it looks like you are at the center of it in your own private idaho. The Study will speak for itself as to whether it makes sense or not.
As for Pennsauken, they did not express interest in a merger. Merchantville citizens have been resisting the sending relationship for years, and our School Board is currently studying a sending relationship with another town. So a merge with Pennsauken looks like it has about as much chance as an ice cube in hell. But maybe you would like to pass a petition in Pennsauken? Good luck with that. Our group will be happy to offer you some tips.
So the law can be modified. Cherry Hill is going through the motions. Did you attend the 7/18 meeting? That is just the beginning. There is a strong group in CH that does not want this merger for all the reasons outlined. We have toured your school in 1999 and it is completely unacceptable. Letter have been written to the Editor that outline these deficiencies.
It seems there will be no further movement toward a merger study for at least 1-2 years as there is no funding. No funding...no study. A huge change in leadership in CH and we have already spoken to him.
I'm with Lavradera on this. This isn't about schools for most folks. My neighbors and I are mostly concerned with property taxes and I have no children. I know people who live in Cherry Hill and pay much less in taxes. Study this option. What's the problem really? Stop whining.
Like many residents of Merchantville I'm concerned with our situation. I have a young child who will be entering school in the coming years. I'd love for her to take advantage of the Merchantville school, but I can guarantee that I won't be a resident any longer when she reaches high school if we are still sending to Pennsauken.
The school is a large concern of mine, but I recognize that we can't afford the taxes if we improve our send situation and more students take advantage. For example, if Haddon Heights was the new school I would expect that a much larger portion of eligible students would enroll. From what I understand we have significant tax savings from the fact that so many of our town's high school student don't take advantage of the free education. I believe it's in the 50-75% range, and I'm sure someone on this blog will correct me if I'm mistaken. If we improve the high school choice and more students take advantage, then our town's education tab will go up and the rise in taxes will undoubtedly get our attention.
Given that, I'd hate to not have the chance to see what our options are. Given a choice between Cherry Hill and Pennsauken (the only contiguous towns), I'm only interested in Cherry Hill. Pennsauken's school is rated very poorly at the state level and it appears to be a major driver for folks in considering a merger with Cherry Hill. That leaves the choices as (a) try and survive as an independent town and improve our send relationship, (b) merge with Cherry Hill to lock in a decent school district.
If this study happens it will be giving us, the voters, the information we need to make an informed decision. How can any of us make that choice based on speculation and assumptions? Anyone who wants to kill this study now is trying to take that choice away from us and lock us into option (a). Let the study happen so that residents of both towns can decide for themselves based on the study data, and we can make an informed decision as voters. In the end I might very well vote against a merger, but I want to explore it as a possibility.
Mr or Ms Anon, you have very little credibility at this point. Last year you told us to watch the news on Tuesday and see what happens. Nothing happened. You continuely promise that Cherry Hill is about to mobilize against and nothing happens. I doubt you really live in Cherry Hill. I was at the meeting on the 18th. No organized revolt just 5 well intentioned Cherry Hill citizens voicing concerns several times each on the microphone. Were you one of these people? I doubt it. I'll tell you what I did notice and found interesting- the Cherry Hill board of Education president nodding his head in agreement with every pro consolidation comment. Maybe their is something in this for everyone? Can you wait to see the study with the rest of us or do you just need to run your mouth prior to fact finding?
I just want to remind all of you - there are State imposed caps on school budgets and on the town budgets. They can only raise the taxes at this prescribed amount.
In light of this any new sending district has to be studied very carefully. If a rush of new students breaks the school budget and the allowable cap, then a well intentioned improvement in the sending arrangement could throw the town into default, and put us at the mercy of the Local Finance Board, just as Camden was. The result could be a merger with no vote, and no choice.
Our options are rapidly evaporating. No matter how dedicated Council may be to making the budget work, there is only so much they can do.
Be assured, its not about the school. Its about choice. The issue of the school has always been about choice. Its beyond that now - its about having a choice in the fate of the entire town.
Patrick: Anyone who wants to kill this study now is trying to take that choice away from us
Patrick's complaint about Merchantville homesteaders wanting to take his choice away reminds me of the farmer in central Jersey who sold his road frontage all around his farm to make ends meet.
When the 200-plus new residents moved in they complained about the smells of the farm. They got together and had an ordinance passed banning the farm.
Patrick moved to Merchantville knowing our situation but now complains that some of us want to take HIS CHOICE away -- the choice to disolve our 150 year-old town.
It seems to me he had a choice before he purchased here. Why should he now complain about our smell?
Springfield: the C.H. board of Education president nodding his head in agreement with every pro consolidation comment.
If you were running a five million dollar shortfall and taking a few hundred students would give you five million to balance that budget, you might be nodding your head with a smile from ear to ear as the hinge point.
AND HE TELLS US THE C.H. COMMISSIONERS ARE A NON-PARTISAN GROUP TO BE PROUD OF.
Hi neighbors - My comments were a general impression of the tone and emotionality reflected in many of the comments on this thread - presumably written by at least a couple of different folks.
It's not all about you "No Choice"!; but if the shoe fits....
That entire exchange directed at "Dan" was an embarrassment.
On behalf of the vast majority of us, those who might disagree but not be disagreeable, Thank You Dan - for volunteering your time, expertize and interest towards the needs of your community!
EyesShut: On behalf of the vast majority of us...Thank You Dan
Which commenter is Dan? ...and why are you using a real name against Blogger's rule if that is what you are doing?
Mville Citizen said... Please do not specifically name or "out" people who wish to remain anonymous or use a pseudonym.
And how did you get to represent the "vast majority of us"? Another unpublic appointment committee meeting that teh public could have participated in if we had known?
You people have a world of your own, don't ya, --like antimatter--and you think everybody with eyes shut is in it.
One might assume that you don't know the history of the territory you are invading. You bust in, plant your flag on the beach, kill the natives, and then hold elections for "the vast majority of us", oblivious to what and whom you just trampled upon.
"History" isn't filed under ANGER AND HATE. It is grouped with "Philosophy" but then you wouldn't know that, recognizing only your own. Would that you could open your shut eyes.
ktfbw frequently posts about "losing local control" because there are more voters in Cherry Hill than in Merchantville.
I think that kind of analysis is very shallow and doesn't reflect the full reality of voting or governence.
For example, in Merchantville an election can be swayed by 25 people switching their votes. Currently the TCE development plans call for 53 apartments to be built. If the new residents voted for/against something that old residents opposed/supported, the new residents would win.
ktfbw, are you opposed to the TCE development on the grounds that bringing in new residents dilutes your vote?
Alice: are you opposed to the TCE development on the grounds...
I am not opposed to the Town Centre East redevelopment. After expressing interest, I was appointed to the search committee involved in drafting the guidelines for redevelopment and for selecting the redeveloper. In that process, Alice, the concerns raised by the group opposed to the AST project were negotiated with the new redeveloper, Fieldstone.
Similarly, upon expressing interest in the Planning Board and the West Maple Revitalization Task Force, I was appointed to both. The concerns of many residents about Wellwood and about the Maple/130 intersection are being addressed in one or the other of those bodies.
Involvement of interested individuals has the highest probability in small governmental units. That was true for the 13 colonies in the 1700s, for Delaware Township in 1813, and for Mechantville today. New Jersey history has been of subdividing bigger into smaller --East & West Jerseys from New York, Camden County from Gloucester, Delaware Twp. from Stockton, and Merchantville from Delaware Twp.
This proposed merger bucks 400 years of a fundamental democratic-governing principle -- local control.
Cherry Hill does not operate as a "local control" entity. It used to. Generations ago my parents and neighbors influenced the naming of Springdale Road. My mother and a few other parents had teachers replaced. I was married by the mayor in the town hall.
Today the only individual stuff you see is the hiring of the former mayor's daughter to run a passport center in the Cherry Hill Mall.
I believe Dan is the chairperson of the Merchantville commission. He is not mentioned by name in earlier comments but his position on the commission is referred to.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Best wishes to the commission for a successful project. Thank you for your service.
there are exceptions to the cap. it can be changed. also residents can vote for a levy above the 2%. happens all the time. good try though.
also, it is all about the schools! if merchantville had won their suit to leave pennsauken and join haddonfield 25 years ago do you think we would be having this discussion. please, don't be insulting. we know it is 99% about the schools.
for us in cherry hill, the horse isn't out of the barn. there are groups including the reform committee that have members with serious doubts.
lavardera, we are long standing CH residents. the schools are why we moved and continue to live in ch. we will not have the schools diluted with a group of students that are 50% proficient when our average is 90%. will never happen.
take a look at the ch school budget. we gave money 500k back to the tax payers last year. there is no shorfall. the administration is managing in this tight financial environment.
the president of the board was shaking his head because that is what he does. he is one of 9 board members. the board members are very protective of their school. when have they ever opened their doors?
do you really believe the governor will give ch the merchanville aide? really? then you have not been watching and listening to our governor. the intention is to have communities absorb the other community and the state aide will be gone. wake up and smell the coffee.
So, ktbfw, to stay on point, "diluting the vote" through increased numbers of voters is not a problem for you?
I am asking if the problem for you is increased numbers of voters (and the TCE development clearly increases numbers of voters and this doesn't bother you) or if the problem is increased distance from city hall to the boundary line.
I believe Dan is the chairperson of the Merchantville commission. He is not mentioned by name in earlier comments but his position on the commission is referred to.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Dan is the alternate. George Wilkinson is serving as Chair of the Merchantville Commissioners.
EyesShut: Thank You Dan - for volunteering your time, expertize and interest towards the needs of your community!
Now we know Dan is the Alternate Merch Commission Chairman. Okay, next question. Why is Eyes Shut thanking and praising Dan on this blog when it took two comments to figure out who he is?
Third, what needs of your community has he dedicated his time to? It hasn't been written. And why does Shut Eyes say the alternate chairman is embarrassed?
There certainly seems to be an in-group and and out-group on this merger business and apparently Shut Eyes has determined the in-group is the "vast majority".
Pray that Shut Eyes will not be appointed Research Expert.
Staying on your point, Alice, about redevelopments diluting the vote which was the farmer-out-of-business message of No Choice a few comments back, my thinking is that smaller populations are more easily apprised about local issues that could affect them.
If I were to live in Tavistock, it would take talking to half of the seventeen voters to present an issue. In Cherry Hill, I don't know, it might take convincing seventeen thousand voters.
Where I voted for a quarter of a century half of 235 votes would get one what he wanted but I didn't need anything because 90 percent of the residents believed the same ideology as I.
Alice, the case in point that answers your question is the petition group. Here, in the small town, the petitioners gathered a petition to present to our local government. They needed 350 signers; they claim getting 700. But in Cherry Hill the petitioners either did not run a petition effort or they failed in that effort. Instead, they used politics.
Many might say that political maneuvering is an honorable approach. Perhaps it is. Personally, I believe it shuts the door to the average Joe like me. So I think it best to keep Merchantville a small, independent governance.
Not sure that "No choice" should be opining on who could be a "research expert"; after being stymied by my reference to the treatment of Dan - and then misguidedly complaining that I've "outed" someone.
Maybe one should consider actually reading the thread that they are "contributing" to.
RESEARCH HINT: Scroll back a few days to around 7/25/11.
Looks like over reliance on Google and the Cable News culture have claimed another victim.
Small in population? Small in geographic size? You are hedging. Cherry Hill is small, it is just larger than Merchantville, which is larger than Tavistock.
I think you are saying that small towns make people more involved? But is that really true? In Merchantville, for example, they have trouble finding people to run for office, volunteer for events. People complain that they don't know what the gov't is up to.
As to the idea that smaller groups will have the same "ideology", where is that coming from? Are you saying the boro gov't has "the same ideology" as the residents? Based upon what?
EyesShut: Scroll back a few days to around 7/25/11.
Oh Wharton Dan! Sorry, I didn't make the connection between the Dans.
I reread Wharton Dan's comment. It was about his own educational program ... and later he threw in a hedging apology. Nothing about service to community.
Interesting. The word verification for this comment is "angst". The computers have joined our conversations.
So we come back to your comments, Shut Eyes. You referenced "embarrassment"? Having a Master's degree Dan should have known that talking about one's college education in an undereducated town will yield some stone throwing. I thought he came out unscathed but, then, I missed the deleted comment. Maybe we should ask lavardera; the previous deletion was his over calling out somebody. And what about Carbide Tip? [7/25/2011 7:09 PM] He was welcoming and generous to Dan almost to a fault.
Where did you pick up the "service to community" points attributed to Dan, Shut Eyes? Your source seems as amorphous as your "anger and hate" perceptions. Please continue with what you were saying.
The Merchantville resolution was in response to the consolidation-study petition signed by residents.
I want to follow up on another point you raised earlier, Alice.
In Merchantville, for example, they have trouble finding people to run for office, volunteer for events. People complain that they don't know what the gov't is up to.
I agree with you especially if you think that non-involvement is caused by residents being too busy as others have suggested or by disinterest. I see both of that.
What concerns me in this present situation is the idea that people can just buy their way out rather than trying to work through the problems at home.
Suppose instead of recruiting Senator Beach (sp?) to rewrite the merger law the petitioners had asked him to support changing the school sending/receiving regulations. And, too, the petitioners could support school board candidates who would address student proficiencies earnestly in Merchantville School.
That change is hard work. Selling us all out is a lot easier.
"The Merchantville resolution was in response to the consolidation-study petition signed by residents."
So? The resolution would have supplanted the petition and ended the petitioners application. Isn't that the similar to the "politics" you decried in CH?
It would be nice in any town of any size if more people got involved. But it seems to me that your belief that the size (population? geographic, which is it?) of the town drives the involvement is not founded upon the facts of our town.
The objections you raise don't effect the value of the study. I thought they might possibly raise some issues to be explored in any merger, but so far, as you have expressed it, they don't.
If you are indeed concerned about "local control" of the school then I suggest you think of a better explanation of what you mean by the phrase. It seems to be no more than a catch-phrase at this point. I know that I have issues I would like the study to address (especially issues of planning and zoning and what is to be done with our publically owned properties).
Finally, suppose I accept your argument that parents can work to make the elementary and middle school better right now. My question is, what stops them from being involved in the school after a merger? An elementary school is a pretty small unit. Wouldn't that be "local" enough to promote involvement in your view?
I recently read an article about consolidation of services in a North jersey area, a preliminary feasability study was approved in the ball park of 40K, somehow the study morphed into costing in excess of 640K. When questioned the authors of the study commented "You get what you pay for"
My question is does anyone have a clue what a study might cost? Would there be an initial study on very basic and broad issues, and then if still interested a much more thorough study? This is where my concern lies, the thoroughness of the study. As an analogy I would want the 640K study, but I don't know where the funds would come from. I don't think we could do a half ass study or something on the cheap and expect the voters of this town or Cherry Hill to make an informed decision.
As soon as I can refind the article I will post the link on here.
Alice: suppose I accept your argument that parents can work to make the elementary and middle school better right now.
You jumped to "parents". That was not my argument. I had suggested that the petitioners could support school board candidates who would address student proficiencies.
Suppose half of the 700 petitioners got involved in running slates of school board members who pledge to "turn the school around". In two years there would be a majority and in three, a full board selecting leaders and personnel, funding programs and negotiating with power units all to the goal of improving student academic proficiency.
Alice, last fall a committee of well-educated volunteers --nearly all professionals in education-- introduced more than a dozen improvement ideas, most of which were operational elsewhere, but our board found "no-go" problems with every proposal. They would not even consider pilot programs to work out kinks. Their interest was funding, not school improvements.
The petitioners could reverse that mindset if they wanted to ... and create successes before this merger takes place.
Now, to your point that the same or similar could be done after a merger. I suggest it would not be possible. Cherry Hill is too big and too successful for the mandates our school needs. Merchantville residents have a perfect opportunity to present a mandate for a school overhaul, complete with new administration, to create the best educational environment in the State.
Did you know that educators, psychologists and psychiatrists from around the world visited the Trenton Normal School for Teachers in the 1880s for ideas on advancing their respective disciplines? Binet developed his intelligence scale at the Vineland School.
Big things happen in little places if one thinks big. Merchantville is a little place.
Merger would give the school a new administration. One you admit is successful. What possible basis do you have for saying former MES students would be, what?, ignored...left out of the CH school system?
You are making no arguments at all against the study and very weak ones against merger.
It seems to me there are always opportunities for people to be involved as you describe--especially in the school system.
You really seem to be saying that the fact of a Study Commission may discourage others from pressing for school reform in Merchantville. In that case, you are not making any argument against the study or merger itself. You are arguing against a failure of the community to pursue your suggestions.
I applaud your interest in school reform. But you are misdirecting your energies when you attack the merger study over what you see as the Merchantville school's weaknesses.
The school Board is spending 40 k to look a a send receive with Haddon Heights that will take over 2 years and much more cost in litigation. I assume you anti study people are upset about this and letting the school board know.
Alice: What possible basis do you have for saying former MES students would be...
Two situations concern me. One, C.H.'s school nearest Merch us does not perform much differently from ours. Now, you will reply that the Central Office announced a $5 million special project to remediate the low performance but when one looks at the details it becomes apparent that the Board had cut nearly that much at the Governor's first threat to reduce funding and then after the funding came through, the Board hired back its personnel with trumpets blowing about it being this special remediation project. That's the first disappointment.
The second concern is the percentage. The number of students performing poorly in C.H. is such a small percentage of the whole population --even if Merchantville students are dumped into that school-- that the most likely scenario would be for school personnel to increase the "traditional helps" that are largely ineffective with a disadvantaged core population.
Merchantville School could create a model reform of its instructional program that one reads about in the educational journals. I doubt that C.H. could ... certainly not through its latest action of hiring back employees.
On the whole you are right in judging my frustration. Last winter I gave up on our school board. I found them --nice people, all of them-- to be a reflection of the parental community. The parents who are active like what they have and do not want it changed.
As to the merger, well, I am resigned to it and can certainly see the rainbows some folks are chasing to find the gold.
I predict the merger will be similar to the computer programs the Weather Bureau uses in long-range forecasts. The first indicators ten days or two weeks out are always large and extreme. As each day passes the computers trim those numbers back towards the mean as the probabilities become more certain.
My estimate is that the consolidation commission will project significant pluses for merging which will diminish over time as the merge takes place, and end up being not much different from what we have now. We just will lack local control of events. I can live with that. If I can't, I'll move.
A few years ago I was walking down the street with the mayor when the mayor of Pennsauken stopped by. With a smile I told him the taxes were so high in Merchantville that I would be moving to Pennsauken. Our mayor responded, "I'll help you pack." Actually, I like parts of Pennsauken. The town is well run from what I can see --rental housing inspections are really thorough-- and it is relatively wealthy with all of its commercial and industrial enterprises.
I forgot to tell the blog that the West Maple Task Force got Camden City to power wash the graffiti off the walls and sidewalk of the old liquor warehouse at Rte 130 and Maple.
The Camden city crew was in the midst of washing off the markings when the alleged owner drove up, told the crew it was artwork they were destroying and he threatened to sue the city if they didn't stop the cleaning.
Fifty years ago the approach pattern to Philadelphia International Airport required aircraft to first pass over Toms River. My special girlfriend at the time was pleased with that path because it allowed her to pause for a moment in her flight-attendant's job and look out a port to check if I were still sailing the bay or had begun my scramble to get to Philly to meet her.
It might have been in the 1980s (?) when the FAA changed the flight route across Jersey from Toms River to PHL in response to complaints from towns like Haddonfield. FAA decided to run the five-mile wide flight path straight up Route 70, probably speculating that Cherry Hill was too busy growing to notice four-engine jets descending over the town every minute of every day. I think Route 70 is still the flight path today.
As is always the case with serendipity --a quiet surprise-- you mergers probably haven't thought about opening Merchantville to aircraft opening their wheel bays over our houses when we become Cherry Hill, the non-complaining town. You could look at it as a plus being able to spot your children arriving home from college for the holidays.
why would anyone complain about the school board spending money on a feasability study? They are only doing what most of the community wants, a change in our High School. The only people against would be the consolidation people who have hidden interests.
"JAAMR" -- Is that a stutter or are you just excited about your logical question?
Hold on a minute. We have not heard from the fount whether or not or how much our school board did spend on a study about a send/receive with Haddon Heights.
As I remember the inquiry was put on hold pending H.H. finding a new superintendent.
Gail knows this stuff. Where is she?
And what information would be needed? The receiver says, yes, we can fit ... what was their number? 225 students ... and we say, okay, let's start with next year's graduating eighth grade. Do you think we can get 300 merger petitioners to meet with Senator Beach to pry us out of the Pennsauken agreement legislatively?
What feasibility study? The mergers didn't buy a feasibility study.
If the school board has recently spent money on a high school consolidation study, I believe it emmanates from the anti-consolidation attitude of most of the school board. Such a study could be useful as a smoke screen to infer that there is a viable alternative to the high school situation which does not require consolidation. In my years on the school board there were regular discussions of changing the sending-receiving relationship to Haddon Heights. Nothing ever developed because when it came down to the formalities of starting the process and signing documents, etc., HH would not deliver.
Changing a send-receive is very difficult. Under the best of conditions (principally meaning Pennsauken would not object), it would take several years.
It would be a far more expensive solution for Merchantville than a complete Cherry Hill merger.
If study money has really been spent, where is the study? Is a copy of it available? On-line? At the school board office?
Is it true that at the meeting with Cherry Hill a Merchantville resident who is part of the consolidation group stated that if the school was able to enter into a new send receive she would vote for that as oppossed to a merger with Cherry Hill?
nothing like being in touch with what's going on. Glad you know that current board members are anti consolidation and they would spend money frivoulously just as a smoke screen. Talk about drinking the kool aid.
What does that cliche, "drinking the Kool Aid", refer to? I hope not to the Jim Jones People's Temple in Jonestown, Guyana, in which 900+ religious members committed mass suicide or were murdered by consuming poison-laced Kool Aid in 1978.
Curent school board members have told me they are anti-consolidation or have expressed that sentiment in public. While I do not agree with them, I understand where they are coming from. Such a position is very much in concert with the long-term prior behaviors of the board.
So, where is the study report from the rumored HH study? If money was spent, there should be a report.
since these school board members have confided in you that they are anti consolidation maybe you should ask them about the study and not attempt to undermine those volunteers with you ASSumptions!
You do not have to add "long-term prior behaviors". It is the responsibility of board members to vigorously support the entities to which they were elected. Every group has its oath of office.
My assumption --here's opportunity for our vulgar contributor to insert his wit-- is that the commenter who introduced the fictitious study thought that was necessary to make his argument. Those who lie do not realize that just doing so destroys their cause.
I want to ask Cruiser a question about something else. Our Master Plan prepared by Regan Design Group after extensive public discussion meetings calls for making the downtown stretch of buildings along West Park Avenue a redevelopment zone for 3-story construction. I understand that 23 West Park Corporate Center (which includes the corporate office behind the retail stores on Park and a very large parking lot) is in receivership and now controlled by its bank.
Should the Borough take advantage of the insolvency by declaring the area a redevelopment zone? For several years, Cruiser, you have advocated dense development for enhanced ratables. What say you now?
The largest investment for a vast majority of Americans is their home. I am pretty confident that that applies to Merchantville residents. I have spoken to half a dozen realtors about this, and every single one was crystal clear. Property values would go up significantly if Merchantville merged with Cherry Hill. They spoke of the schools as the largest factor. But also spoke of the services and stability of Cherry Hill as another contributor. Another interesting point was they could still sell the things that make Merchantville special. The walkability of the town. The small town ambience etc.
I am so relieved that someone really addressed property values. Look at what two beautiful Victorian homes are listed at recently. Really, they will go for less than $250k. It worries us as they are following the sold price of the Victorian that sold on Maple Ave. recently. Yes, there is no doubt in our minds that a merger with Cherry Hill will help this downhill slide. People are running scared with revaluations and selling out - part of it is the market conditions as well. But it is obvious a merger will help property values. Forget about taxes not going up - the revaluation will more than take care of that long before a merger will.
But what does cherry hill have to gain? Please tell me one thing we will gain other than a lot of headaches and non proficient students.
Money? There is no way CH would get the Merchantville school aide. It has already been researched. The aide will go into the state's pocket and CH will need to absorb the cost.
I know I don't know what I'm talking about and their are probably benefits to Cherry Hill that I'm not aware of. Maybe I'll just stop speculating and wait for the study to be complete. Sorry for ranting.
Cherry Hill will gain about $160 million in ratables, perhaps more depending on how the revaluation is handled in a merger situation.
With those ratables will come additional costs for services but those costs for services will not be nearly as high as what Merchantvile now pays for those services.
Cherry Hill also gets a victorian village with a walkable downtown. Those ratables that cruiser mentions will surely go up as property values will rise. Merchantville will become the most desirable part of the west end.
I have no basis for this other than hear say. I have heard from several people that Merchantville's additional population will allow Cherry Hill to cross a critical population threshold that will grant them access to more state and federal funding. That would be a huge plus for Cherry Hill depending on the numbers.
Ratables yes. But is will not be enough to compensate for the additional costs. Merchantville is complaining about costs/taxes now? how will that change.
victorian village. really? we're cherry hill. our focus is education and we are also focused on education.
the additional population does nothing to cross a threshold for state and federal funding.
there are two matters that the merger group didn't count on.
1. there will be a new mayor very soon in ch. mayor platt is not running for reelection. we have already had many conversations with the new mayor.
2. there is NO funding for the study. cherry hill will not be paying into this study and the state has said "no". the group is looking to do fundraising for the $100k. anyone want to contribute?
we will be talking about this until 2015 which is ok because merchantville talked about their haddonfield school arrangement for 20 years. how did that ever work out?
I guess we need the consolidation study if all we have to go by is the research of the last anonymous who has talked to the new mayor before the election (interesting that C.H. should bother with the election if the new mayor is already doing his job -- of course I always thought that there was never a mayor named Platt because only Beachum or Meachum talked to anyone), has found out there will not be any state funding, has predetermined that the study will cost $100K, and knows the petitioners are fund raising at this very minute.
On second thought, who needs a study. Let's let Anonymous do everything. He is so ahead of us all.
I wanted to apologize for my post last night. After heavy drinking I somehow think it's funny to come on the blog and pretend to be a Cherry Hill resident hellbent against Merchantville. The truth is that I don't know the next mayor of Cherry Hill or anyone there, because I really don't live there. If you don't hear from me again, that will mean that I'm back in the program.
Just found out who the anon is who posts as a Cherry Hill resident. Can't believe he would stoop to this type of game playing. How the mighty have fallen.
I am a teacher at Haddon Heights High (3HS) school and can confirm that the study has begun. I myself met the man doing the first phase of the study, and, if memory serves, he did his evaluation of the academic aspects of the school back in mid-spring. Evidently, the report was very good about the academics at 3HS, but the concern was, as always, the financial ability of MVL to attend. Anyway, if what I recall is correct, there are two other legs of the study, and the academic one was just the first.
Our new superintendent in Heights seems very interested in taking on a sending agreement with MVL, especially since school age population from the other 2 sending districts has gone down.
Obviously, I'm biased because I work there, but I'd be happy to have my children attend 3HS. It actually may be a better fit for MVL than Pennsauken since it's a smaller school environment, much like MES. That being said, I don't know the financials, and certainly don't know if MVL can afford it.
I'm getting tired of all the talk about schools. I'm a senior citizen on a fixed income and I signed the petition because I want property tax relief. We should study anything that might help seniors like me.
Thank you for your reasonable answer. One of the persistent issues that NCLB exposed was the failure of even the most successful school districts to educate minority and poor students (not necessarily the same thing).
I don't see this problem being resolved easily no matter what happens with merger or the send receive.
Now you want help. Had you supported excellent schools when you were out doing whatever you did as a productive adult, you would have in this town now well-educated, prosperous neighbors who would be paying a greater share of the tax burden you are complaining about.
Education is the most important thing for communities to provide. It's the true retirement investment for everyone.
Too bad you are tired of hearing about our neglected school. Signing the petition expecting tax relief instead of doing something about the school is just another bad decision.
"Forget about taxes not going up - the revaluation will more than take care of that long before a merger will."
A revaluation redistributes the tax burden based upon value. It does not "raise taxes". The amount of the levy is the amount of taxes that have to be paid. The reval will say who pays them.
Since we have not had a revaluation in over 10 years, most people will see an increase in their assessments. If everyone's assessment went up by the same percentage, no one would see a tax increase.
If your increase is greater than your neighbor's you will see a tax increase along with your assessment increase. Take comfort in the fact that you have been underpaying your taxes for years.
County taxes work the same way but on a macro scale.
Generally speaking, larger homes will pay higher taxes than smaller homes. So if you are currently in a large house and pay lower taxes than your smaller neighbors, you will likely see an increase in your share of the taxes.
"...large house and pay lower taxes than your smaller neighbors, you will likely see an increase " ... she says with a Cape Cod smile.
Every time you explain that a revaluation does not increase taxes overall I feel compelled to footnote your comment with the piece of history which reports that the tax rate "adjustment" at the time of the revaluation is often smaller than enough to create a zero change.
MVL won't be able to afford to send all the kids that will want to attend Haddon Heights in a send/receive because the number of kids that will sign up to go there will far outnumber the kids that go to Pennsauken. Merchantville has been using those high school dollars for kids not going to high school for their advantage - what else have they been doing with all of that money. That means the well is dry, dry, dry. It's a shame the school board wasted $40k for this particular study. MVL will continue the downslide it has been on since the recession and with another recession looming, it will only get worse. Pack it up and hope we merge with Cherry Hill. That is one study that can't get done quickly enough and that won't be a waste of money. And you can't blame the seniors for signing the petition for their own reasons - they are quite entitled to do so.
WastedStudy: MVL won't be able to afford to send all the kids that will want to attend Haddon Heights...
Do it one year at a time. Start with next year's 8th grade class. They go to the new receing school. All those in Pennsauken stay in Pennsauken. The following year, the next 8th grade graduates go ... and so on for the four years of transition.
What? It's about moving the tax dollars not the physical aspect of it! The money won't be there - it's a buget buster. If 30 of the kids that graduate 8th grade choose to use the public school - say Haddon Heights - instead of the 8 or so that typically use Pennsauken that's 24 more kids using that money. It's not there, just not there!!! They are counting on still more people using private schools, makes no sense at all. A lot less people will use private school. A lot less.
I'll say what most people are thinking. The current situation is just fine. We have the best police department anywhere. That's what counts. Our school does a great job and our high school relationship with Pennsauken is ideal. Pennsauken high school provides a decent education and people unhappy with that can pay their share to educate their children. A switch to a more name brand fancy highschool will leave us all with the tab. Let's have the yuppy petitioners pay their own way!
Most people are NOT thinking the current situation is FINE! You live in a bubble. Our police force will be taken from us by the county - do you read a newspaper or watch the news? Maybe that is why you blindly think everything is fine. Our relationship with Pennsauken just plain sucks. Time for change, like it or not, as MOST of us not only think but believe!!! Oh, by the way, the term yuppie (which you can't even spell) went out the window about 10years ago - so obviously you are way behind the curve just based on your verbage.
"Nothing will be taken away by the County, nor the State, nor the Federal Government, nor will any merger be forced upon us without our consent or us giving it away"
Let's stop the fear mongering and speculation. Is it fair to say that we will not be able to afford a new send/receive without the feasability study?
Let's see how the school board makes out with this issue.
If anything actually happens with send/ receive, I credit the petitioners for getting everyone off their duff. I've lived here a very long time and that issue has rarely seen momentum, however, let's all keep in mind that Pennsauken will likely sue and HH would then walk away. Sound familiar?
yes. give the school board the opportunity to move forward with haddon heights. this is a way to preserve our town and local control and getting a new HS send/receive. the best of both worlds.
We believe a new send/receive with HH will never work just like the previous post. There will be a lawsuit. And the school board has to prove that if every child who wants to enroll at HH wants to, the funds will be there (they won't be). It's going to be the same battle as Haddonfield many moons ago. Let it go and suck up the $40k on the study. Our school board is just smoke and mirrors trying to preserve an old system that won't work. Fortunately, some of us see through it all.
Here is an inquirer article about Wenonah Council likely to end their police force and join another town.
Those who are against a Study because of a desire to retain our Police Force have to realize that there is an overwhelming trend emerging. We'll soon have pressure to join a county force as well, and Police remain our single greatest expense on the Borough Budget. Its unlikely that Merchantville will be able to maintain an independent force.
Police are generally the biggest part of any budget at the municipal level. I think it is way to early to be jumping ship here. To maintain the same level of services we do now will cost just as much, if you want to reduce services you can reduce costs, but I don't feel that small reduction would be worth it. We would save $200 a year or so. Let's keep our eyes open and think things through logically not playing tit for tat with point for or against consolidation. It does amaze me how you know all these things and can predict what will happen in the future.
I keep reading people on both sides talk about how if we had a send receive with a better high school, more kids would choose to attend it therefore raising costs.
I am a simple man, I see things simply. Doesn't this shine the light on the fact that our town, and its current send receive situation offers its citizens a crappy school that a majority choose not to attend?
How can that be justified as good no matter what side of the merger fence you are on. To me it says that our town has been letting the citizens down for a long, long time.
Its time for a change. Everyone wants the very best education for their children. If Merchantville is the shining beacon of the great American town that the anti merger people praise so much, why do they accept the fact that they off the citizens lower than par education opportunities?
what about the citizens of pennsauken or camden? do you believe they are all happy with their public schools?
you are correct. it is very simple. move to the town where you want your children educated. if you decide to reside in CH you get the CH schools. If you CHOOSE to live in Merchantville, you get Pennsauken. Move somewhere else if you are unhappy or be content with where you live and the schools in that town.
Lavardera: ...have to realize that there is an overwhelming trend emerging.
It sounds exciting but the facts do not support lavardera's claim. How many years ago did Medford Lakes consider eliminating its police force and contracting out to Medford Twp but then voted it down in a referendum? Sharing night time coverage across borders and sharing backup protection has been going on in various places for decades.
Sharing backup with reduced night shifts was proposed to Council right here in Merchantville a few years ago. Some residents believe the Pennsauken police force --with its presence passing through Merchantville many times a day-- would be a good police system to merge with.
Such considerations rise and fall. If lavardera wants to think of Winonah, with half our population, is defining "an overwhelming trend emerging", well, we will let him think that. We remember what he says, that he gives only an opinion, not a prediction.
But now that he has raised the point, replacing the Merchantville police with Pennsauken services would be far more efficient and cost friendly than the Cherry Hill alternative. Pennsauken's force is on our streets now and Pennsauken's coverage per capita is almost a match to ours whereas Cherry Hill's per capita coverage is closer to half ours.
Lavardera will not champion that overwhelming trend emerging whatever its logic.
The founding of Merchantville isn't much different from the founding of our nation. The founding fathers were guided by the lord. Its no accident. If certain residents don't like the situation, what gives them the audacity to reshape it? Accept it or move on. We've always had a high turnover rate in town, because it's reasonable to move on when that is your best option, rather than fight to reshape what doesn't belong to you.
Without endorsing the last contributor's take on immutability of the founding of our nation and Merchantville, let me suggest that we ask Alice what is today's mobility rate of American families. I remember eight years being the average length of ownership, at least in good times, before this deep recession. Up until recently the military and my mother skewed the family-stay data. Military reassignments came every two years and my mother like a time clock moved every 18 months for 93 years, 80% of which required my muscle power.
I'll tell ya nobody is moving in the rental market except back to cheaper.
"Some residents believe the Pennsauken police force --with its presence passing through Merchantville many times a day-- would be a good police system to merge with."
My recollection is that the "some residents" did not include anyone on boro council.
In fact, I think the "some residents" could have met in a phone booth with room for everyone to sit, when they had such things.
"If certain residents don't like the situation, what gives them the audacity to reshape it?"
umm..... Democracy?
I just love the way this poster cites the founders of our nation, and then reprimands citizens for pursuing the democratic process! Perhaps they think the founding fathers should have just moved to mexico if they did not like the deal in the 13 colonies? That would have turned out great - no.
Lavardera: they think the founding fathers should have just moved to mexico
There is a line in the sand that you have missed, lavardera.
One might use democratic "reshaping" tools up to the point, but not including, of dissolving the government being reshaped. Beyond that point there is war (which the founders chose) with all its risks and consequences.
The commenters are telling you they think your petition group is close to the line.
Actually, if you received you tax bill recently just like I did you can easily make the comparison. Also notice that we currently do not pay a Fire District Tax. It would appear on the surface that if my current home where in Cherry Hill I would pay MORE in taxes.
My Cherry Hill neighbors down the street from me pay much less in property taxes for similar homes. What's wrong with studying this option? Why so resistant to taking a look at this?
This appeared on Merchantville Facebook page: The Board of Education invites you to attend a critical issues input session to gather information to set criteria for the new District Superintendent. To encourage the open discussion no BOE members will be in attendance during the sessions.
Please plan to attend one of two sessions scheduled on Thursday, 9/1/11 or 9/8/11 at 7:00 p.m. in the Merchantville Library.
For more information please call the Board Office at (856) 663-1091.
"My Cherry Hill Neighbor" Not sure who your neighbor is or what the assessed values are of both of your homes, but it appears clear to me if you take the current assessed value of your home in Merchantville and extrapolate the numbers that were posted on the Cherry Hill website, it is evident that taxes will NOT decrease.
holus: "neighbors around town won't have to move away because they can't afford to pay for private tuition."
Nobody sells his house and moves for a public high school education, paying 6 percent sales fee, 6 percent purchase fee, settlement costs at both ends, taxes, mortgage fees, legal fees, inspection/engineering fees, and timing it all in order to avoid a bridge mortgage and its costs ... in a market with lag time over a year.
Get real! It's obvious you went to high school in the local receiving district.
Okay, then we don't need to merge. We can just distribute out-of-area real estate brochures to 8th graders for Mom and Dad.
kwadz, you also moved to the Capital area for a stint and if I remember correctly you said upon returning that you would have moved to Cherry Hill (where you were raised) but couldn't afford it at the time BUT were saving your pennies and would move before you kids entered school. Wasn't that elementary school? And didn't you say you jog around the Cooper River Park rather than the Merchantville bike path?
I'm not sure you ever collected your Merchantville credentials ... at least not those issued by our "true" residents.
Glad to see you got resettled and your house sold -incidentally, didn't you say you were going to C.H. even if your Merch house did not sell right away. And that reminds me, you came back to Merchantville because the house was still available or in the family or something allowing an easy reconnection, right? I'm not spilling the beans. All of this you had put on the blog sometime back ... when praising Merchantville as a little, friendly community that you preferred.
I have not looked at the register but I suspect you don't count among the minuscule number who might sell their home for the kids' H.S. experiences. You are/were listed with those marked as having gypsy in their blood type.
Yes, I did move (for work) to DC for a year and then moved back to MVL. I loved living in MVL and used the bike path for jogging until my mileage surpassed that which was possible by looping the path several times. Therefore, I was one of the residents hoping for an extension of the current path across Cove Rd. to the Pennsauken side and with Pennsauken's cooperation, a continuance into Maple Shade for us higher mile runners.
Anyway, I still own that house in Merchantville and hope to keep it through retirement if we can keep good tenants this time. We needed a bigger house and had Merchantville been in a better school district, we would have loved to have stayed. My wife and I were both sad to leave the town since we loved it so much, but we knew it was best for our children so that they wouldn't get caught up in the school district issue. I really thought it would have been possible to orchestrate a change in the high school situation before we had kids, but I was overly optimistic.
Well, I guess you consider a gypsy someone who lived in Cherry Hill for 20 straight years, Merchantville for 6 straight years with a temporary relocation for employment, and then back to Cherry Hill for potentially the next 40 years. Although, maybe we will move back to MVL in 20+ years after our children are finished their schooling.
I live on a block with 10 houses. During the 20 years I've lived here 4 families have moved to have access to another public high school. Two to Haddonfield, one to Moorestown, one to Maple Shade. I've known many others who did not live on my block who have done the same. This kind of flight does great harm to our community, no doubt.
OK, So Kwadz counts as one who moved because of the school...Well, sorta. Who are all these other "dozens" of families that are moving because of the lack of a high school? How many families of the recent graduation class of Merchantville School have moved this summer so their children can go to a different public school?
and kwadz moved to cherry hill because he wanted the cherry hill public schools.
note to merchantville citizens: if you want your kids to go to cherry hill schools, mopve to cherry hill. I can name 10 merchantville families (and i don't even live in merchantville) that moved in the last two years because they wanted their kids to go to another public HS.
move if you want your kids to go to another school. please don't continue to ask another town to save you.
Hey, everybody has stories of their neighbors (who become their best friends after leaving) who moved for one reason or another -- the cops pick on their kids, don't like the "politicians", the train makes too much noise or the fire siren and now the high school is too bad since the petitioners walked the town.
Let's see, yes, it was in 1969 I met a young couple raised in Merchantville but at that moment headed for Medford, leaving the inherited Merchantville house up for sale, and on their way with three kids because ...why?... because Merchantville was going to the Big Burning "H". It was caused by the Pennsauken people moving across 130 if I remember correctly.
Nice couple. Dad became a Medford cop and Mom probably had a fourth kid, I'll bet. She always had an alluring glint in her eye.
How long has it been since they judged Merchantville as having gone to the Burning H? 42 years? They must be retired now. Wonder if they would return here to live out the rest of their time. Probably not. They say ya can't go back. So true.
So let me get this right... If you are not happy with where you live for whatever reason you sell your home and move someplace that better fits your life. Well that makes sense.
I don't think you will get too many arguments that most of us would like to improve the High School situation. For whatever reason the consolidation group has become fixated that this is the only solution and that the only way to determine this is to have a study. I have read that taxes will go down and that this isn't about the high school. It never ceases to amaze me how people will bend the truth and lie just to make their argument better, or to scare people. Let's stick to the facts at hand taxes will increase if we consolidate. The town will fundamentally change. If you are OK with this then good for you, if your not then good for you also. I still have a hard time placing any faith in a group of people that were not ELECTED by a simple majority of the Merchantville residents. In my opinion when the law was changed it fundamentally goes against every principle this country was founded upon. Politics makes strange bedfellows and there sure is a lot of strangeness going on around here.
231 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 231 Newer› Newest»Any university that holds contests for its students to design buildings and then builds those "winners" despite what they should look like standing next to one another is not the university that I want to do a merger study here, free or not. No doubt they'd make a contest of it.
So happy to hear those in Cherry Hill that feel the same way I do. We don't want our high school diluted and there is no tax savings. cherry hill is not here to save merchantville. go to pennsauken for help. you are already half way in the door.
The news article presented the consolidation meeting as being thorough in exploring the opening issues of a merger. Good synopses of events do not appear on this blog readily. One has to waterboard to get good information and if he were to, there is the inevitable "hate" payback.
I'm grudgingly impressed with the petition group. Most young people are happy to sit on their buts and complain. Job well done.
I expected to see the petitioners name themselves to this commission and they didn't. I was at the meeting on Monday and feel pretty happy with our delegation. Actually I feel much more comfortable with this groups ability to negotiate and horse trade than the group proposed by council last year.
This group contains two CEOs, a self made multi-millionaire 50 year resident, a tough Republican black woman and a Wharton MBA. I think they'll do just fine.
I'm pretty impressed with this group as well. They might actually eat Cherry Hills lunch. We're in good hands on this.
Don't think anyone is gonna eat Cherry Hill's lunch, politics will rear its ugly face especially when you have someone playing for the other side.
There was another informative article in the Sun:
Merger Talks Advance
Also posted this link at the Petitioner's Facebook Group:
Merchantville Study for Consolidation
Watch this page for constant updates as the Study process progresses.
I also posted it at the Merchantville, NJ facebook page but it was deleted soon after. This will not be a reliable source of information about the Study process.
Why are borough employees trying to censor information to residents?? That's outrageous!
It is not a borough web site - remember, its owned by the Brennans. And yes, its very disappointing that they would suppress information.
Its worth contesting some of Mayor North's statements in the latest Sun article.
Mayor North Said:
North said he had hoped to see a different group representing Merchantville, one with more overall knowledge of how government works.
“They’ve never been on council and they are not familiar with things like debt service and tax rates,” North said.
This ranges from incorrect, to simply untrue. Of course Mr. Perno is on Council right now and has a firm grip on these issues. Mr Wilkinson is a former Councilman. These gentlemen know how government works. And this is where our Commission is much more balanced than the one proposed by Mayor North. In Ms. Hicks we have a former School Board member who is also a human resources expert, and in Mr. James we have former teacher, and Ms Birmingham a downtown business owner and long term resident. Our Commission is prepared to see these issues from both sides, as the government and as citizens, and from the schools viewpoint as well. Our Commission is better qualified for the task, and is more representative of the diversity of our community.
According to this article, Merchantville council is planning a special session to withdraw symbolic support for this commission. What a waste of time. Why insult the citizens who agreed to serve?
Lavardera,
I see that Cherry Hill has the current school board president on the commission, was our school board president asked to serve? If she was and declined did you group ask any other member?
It appears (Perception) that there was much tomfoolery when the council appointed a committee and your group was extremely unhappy, Cherry Hill did nothing, law was changed, your group appointed people, then low and behold Cherry Hill finally appointed their commission members. Gotta tell you the perception here is that your commission is trying to control this process, and my problem with this is I did not elect a single one of the commission members. As much as I would like to believe that this process will be fair and impartial, I just can't. But time will tell.
how long was ms hicks on the school board? and was it merchantville?
Ms Hicks was an elected member of the Merchantville School Board and my rcdollection is she served approximately 3 to 6 months.
JAMR, Re. your question about the Merchantville BOE Chair Ed Bohn, one of the Commissioners proposed by Mayor North was approached, but he declined.
There was no "Tomfoolery" as you put it. The Petitioners were on the sidelines once Council passed their own resolution. It was their study to run. But by my observation they took steps that alienated Cherry Hill and ensured they would not get together. At the 24 January 2011 Council Meeting Mayor North reported on a conference call between the two Mayors and DCA. He reported that on the call Cherry Hill Mayor Platt expressed reservations about Council's choice of Commissioners. I explained my take on what happened between Council and Cherry Hill in this comment thread at 7/12/2011 3:57 PM. Mayor Platt pretty much spelled it out to Frank in plain english on that call. Council's response was to do nothing. The eventual fall out of this was the Petitioners were able to finally submit an application many months later.
Control? You say our Commission is trying to control the process? I could get dizzy from the comments here - our Commission is controlling, our Commission is too weak..? Merchantville is so great Cherry Hill wants to steal it, Merchantville stinks why would Cherry Hill want you...? Just crazy stuff coming from polar opposites, and all anonymous posts.
We've proposed smart and dedicated people on the Commission. Their interests are the same as everybody else in town - to have a good outcome for Merchantville.
lavardera: This ranges from incorrect, to simply untrue.
Mr. Lavardera invited us to read what he refers to as "an informative article" in the C.H. Sun and then two comments later he refuted what the young, articulate reporter wrote.
Personally I am impressed with Ms. DiPento's reporting. I know that Mayor North (or as lavardera now calls him, Frank, as opposed to Mr. Mayor, Your Honor or Mayor North as is due to an elected official in the United States) had the opinion that the reporter captured so accurately.
lavardera: Mayor Platt pretty much spelled it out to Frank in plain english
Indeed, "spelled it out". Makes you want to create a convoy to escort Ms. DiPento as she rides her bicycle down Route 70 to report the facts ... and to do it with a solid grasp of our language, which as I remember, is English.
I'll go one paragraph further. Maybe we should send our kids to Philly for basic schooling. The Sun's reporter did a better job covering all sides of the merger issue than all of the adults here on both sides of the issue. Hurray for her!
"my rcdollection is she served approximately 3 to 6 months."
She was active in the Republican Club about the same length of time.
Ms. Hicks resigned before she was removed. Never showed up.
KT - I've not refuted the reporter or anything she wrote. She quoted and represented what the Mayor told her. My comments are in response to the Mayors statements. You are confused as usual.
Three school board members were asked to serve and declined. The commission does have 2 former BOE member.
What about the suggestion that Merchantville's incoming commission doesn't understand finance, government or debt? So he's calling these five individuals and one alternate incompetent? 2 Ceo's, a CPA, a downtown business owner, 1 lawyer and current council member, a Wharton MBA, etc. This group looks pretty competent in my eyes.
Mayor: ...different group representing Merchantville, one with more overall knowledge of how government works
Anon: So he's calling these five individuals and one alternate incompetent?
YES! EXACTLY! Even used the same words, didn't he?
Many of the mayors recomendations were asked to serve, and all declined. Stop whining.
Anon: Three school board members were asked to serve and declined.
Perhaps the three were thinking their efforts would be better spent working on our school rather than studying alternatives.
Camden County Democrats will like this. In an interview not too long ago President Clinton said that the people in an agency cannot think of ways to cut their own programs. The only way to cut is to create another agency to do just that.
Extending Clinton's logic, it seems sensible that those involved in our school and prior Borough officials would not accept invitations to join a consolidation group they believe has a mission unlike their own.
But every rule has its exception and we have one local government official who not only accepted the other-side invitation, he orchestrated it ... which leaves us with the hard thought that Mr. Clinton still could be 100% correct.
Quoting Lavardera:
"He reported that on the call Cherry Hill Mayor Platt expressed reservations about Council's choice of Commissioners."
It's great to see how much power we are already giving up to Cherry Hill. Is this going to be the norm?
Your group makes accusations about the Mayor and his appointees, I merely am trying to point out the same perception about your choices and how we arrived at them. But your group is too close to see what the perception looks like.
My recollection is that there are nine school board members was each one asked? If not, why not?
For the record I am not impressed with all the commission members chosen by your group, you could have done better, you could have been more open during your selection process. But we are where we are, Just hate it when some people act Holier than Tho.
JAMR says:
It's great to see how much power we are already giving up to Cherry Hill. Is this going to be the norm?
No. We've not given up any "Power" to Cherry Hill. Cherry Hill had ZERO input into our proposed Commissioners. We received input from everybody involved in Petitioning. I don't know who you are, but you could have participated if you wished. We were certainly more open than the Mayor making his selections. We consulted with several of his choices. He did not reach out to us.
Cherry Hill has no more power here than Merchantville. If we did not like their Commissioner choices that would be the end of it. We both have that right.
Your group makes accusations about the Mayor and his appointees, ...
I am not making accusations, just offering my own take on why Council failed to gain CH's trust on this. Last fall Pat Brennan's wife Joan broadly criticizes Cherry Hill and its government on her Merchantville Municipal web site, then Mayor North puts Pat Brennan on his Commission. Platt tells him the Commissioner choices are a problem. Mayor North does nothing. No application is formed.
That's not an accusation. Thats' what happened.
So then Platt did dictate the choice of Merchantville Commissioners.
You did not answer my question if all the Board Members were asked, and if not why not.
I am not trying to put you on the defensive , but merely trying to work through the perception that your choices are the best for Merchantville, and not just the consolidation people.
lava: "you could have participated if you wished"
I, too, did not know about the offering to the public to participate in commission-member selection by the Merch moving forward group. I rarely even see the group's name written anywhere. Lava calls it "we" and nobody else says boo. I used to check back to Gail's comment for the name because she always get such details right but her comment in now on another thread.
I don't do the facebook thing so I am out and there could be hundreds if not thousands of others out too. In fact the best example I can think of on public notice by the group is the announcement of the Merchantville meeting in some church a few hours before the event and in conflict with a Borough meeting (that I attended).
My vote goes to Just A Merchantville Resident for his perceptions.
JAMR said:
So then Platt did dictate the choice of Merchantville Commissioners.
Both parties have a mutual right to withdraw. One party exercising that right does not constitute dictating to the other. Mayor North did not respond to Mayor Platt's concerns. No application was formed. Nothing was dictated to Mayor North. Nothing was dictated to the Petitioners.
I'll be happy to respond to your other question when I believe you are ready to stop twisting my answers.
to I, Too, said... whoever you are
Lots of people volunteered time to the petitioning group. Collecting signatures, dropping flyers, making calls. Many joined up as the process was moving and happening. Anybody with the will and desire to be involved was involved. Everybody in town knew about the petition, and we had lots and lots of people step forward and help. So you are only "out" if you did not put yourself "in". If you missed it I'm sorry, but count your blessings you missed lots of hot days last summer pounding the pavement.
This article from March 2011 published in the Remapping Debate blog makes a good review of the Consolidation question that NJ faces:
If it's boke, why not fix it?
this has failure written all over it.
"Three school board members were ask to participate and declined" WOW. Why? remember if the doors to cherry hill EVER open, the doors to MES will be the first to close. you have heard what has been said about the school in the past . the CH board did a walk through in 1999 and found it to be unacceptable for CH school board needs. Nothing has changed .
lava: "Mayor North did not respond to Mayor Platt's concerns"
Do you happen to know what Platt's concerns were? Other than he did not want to work with one of our former mayors appointed to our consolidation commission?
Merchantville COUNCIL selected our consolidation commission and then waited more than a month for C.H. to form its commission to work with ours. Mr. Platt failed to do that and so our Council recinded our resolution.
Lava, explain your comment.
lavardera said "Lots of people volunteered time to the petitioning group. Collecting signatures, dropping flyers, making calls."
All the middle and upper grade students in our Merchantville School are taught "Main Idea" and "Attention to Detail" in reading instruction.
If any student had read the sentence "I, too, did not know about the offering to the public to participate in commission-member selection by the Merch moving forward group", he or she should be able to answer simple questions about the sentence such as "What selection is "I,Too" writing about?
I'm not sure that Cherry Hill intentionally didn't work with the council group. Even after the legislation passed which clarified the "hibrid" application, it still took Cherry Hill several more months to put together a committee. This is all conspiracy theory stuff. I don't think the Cherry Hill group, much like Merchantville's government, is adequately competent to pull of a conspiracy.
If the "Wharton MBA" refers to me, then I have to clear the air for the sake of my own sense of integrity.
What was originally posted was that "our alternate Dan is a Wharton grad"
That's true, I have a BSEcon from Wharton with concentrations in Strategic and Entrepreneurial Mgmt. I have an MBA from Temple.
If it makes you feel better (it probably won't), most of my Wharton classes were crosslisted with the graduate school - we always joked that we got an MBA for a cheaper price. Not that it got us anywhere...
If there's another Wharton grad (MBA) in our group, kudos to us.
@Wharton Dan:
You might have some fancy degrees, but I've never heard of you. How long have you lived here? And how do we know that you have Merchantville in your heart? I liked the Mayors recommendations better because they would have put a quick end to this plot.
@Anonymous
We have something in common - I've never heard of you either.
I've lived in Merchantville 11 years, and have a child in the Merchantville school. I'm a senior executive working for a firm in Cherry Hill for the last 16 years.
Honestly, I can't say I have "Merchantville in my heart", cause I was born, raised, and schooled in Philly. So, I don't know too much about the petty power struggles in our little borough.
I'm curious about this process, and look forward to the report detailing the ramifications of a merger (sorry for that long word with all those syllables - that's my fancy schmancy degree influence)
"I liked the Mayors recommendations better because they would have put a quick end to this plot."
The quick end being a total rejection of the process??? No bias there.
Sorry, my reply to Anonymous probably came out a little dickish. The "I've never heard of you" probably ranks up there with "Do you know who I am?" as irritating comments (to me). I'm not a fan of conceit.
Once the committee is made official, I'd be happy to discuss my skills and qualifications as a member (alternate) of the committee.
Okay fancy guy. So you have a kid in the school and you've lived here a short time. You should recuse yourself, because you're already biased. It's a good thing your just an alternate Mr Senior executive. People like you come and go in this town. Wait till you've been here a bit longer before you feel so entitled to study our town.
11 years isn't enough to have a say? That's most likely $100,000 in taxes paid. I think that's enough.
And here I was trying to apologize for being snippy. I didn't realize having a child made me biased. My family is fortunate to be able to send our kid wherever when the time comes, so I'm not desparate for a Cherry Hill school. I have no motivation for or against the merger.
I didn't realize there was a minimum residency requirement to serve on the committee, or for anything for that matter. How long have you lived in Merchantville? Since you hide behind anonymity, do you even "bleed Merchantville" as you posed earlier?
I should have known I'd be flamed for being honest. You've proven to me why blogs are a waste of time and energy.
The point here is that the petitioners group was unhappy with the Mayor's choices and subsequent Council approval, this was somehow mysteriously parlayed into Cherry Hill's Mayor Platt voicing his dissapproval of our towns elected officials choices, which mysteriously led to a new law being written, and a new commission being selected by a group of residents mysteriously hand picked by that group who now mysteriously has the approval of Cherry Hill. I am sure glad Cherry Hill did not dictate who our commissioners should be, and I am sure glad that the current commissioners were selected in the open and not behind closed doors. The more I look at this the more I see problems with this whole process. I have not for or against a feasability study, but if one were to be done I would want it done by our elected group of officials who answer to me the voter. One lone councilperson on the current commission does not suffice and his stance is already suspect.
I do not think the consolidation group did an excellent job in selecting commissioners, and I do not like the law that was written just for this purpose. With that I will wait and see what happens and take whatever actions I see fit based upon the information that flows or doesn't flow from this commission.
What looks like a mystery to you was probably just hard work and persistance. I've stated before that I lean heavily against a merge, but this petition group kept at it every step of the way. No mystery. Some people sit around and spin theories, others get to work.
No argument that this group worked hard, and is persistent. Still Doesn't mean its right.
Welcome, Wharton Dan. And do not apologize for being open. The more we see the better.
I was just telling a helper today that I lament the passing of the man who came to each construction site every week and took home a couple dozen saws to sharpen. Carbide tipped blades put him out of business I suspect. But he is not needed in town or on this blog. More useful to us would be a stone wheel to sharpen all the axes we have to grind.
If you are unhappy with the selection process or with the choice of commissioners, the place to complain is with the DCA.
The commission requires DCA approval to continue.
It is simply not true that you, or anyone in either town, has no voice in this matter.
Lenin and Trotsky were hard workers too.
Still no answer to my earlier School Board question? I guess I'll just be dismissed as an 'Unknown', that would be ashame because I think it is a valid question and one that should be addressed.
Lavardera:
"I'll be happy to respond to your other question when I believe you are ready to stop twisting my answers."
I have made no attempt to twist your words, I simply am interpreting what you are saying and telling you what I am hearing (Perception)
Frankly, respond or don't respond to my question, your quote above says it all. I wonder if that would be an acceptable response from a councilperson?
JAMR, after your tantrum, no, no more dialog for you with me. Sorry. You take everything I post as fuel for more ridiculous presumptions. If a blog is a town meeting, I don't owe anything to people who come with a hood over their head.
I find it suspicious that our mayor and the Merchantville democrat party are so worried about others overseeing this audit and study. Are they hiding something? I have to wonder about the bank purchase and certain property transactions. Outsiders can't be counted on to sweep dirt under the rug. I only see one insider on this commission. Would have been better to have none, but that's fine. I'm not a huge fan of consolidation, but looking forward to the outside audit.
"no more dialog for you with me. You take everything I post as fuel...people who come with a hood over their head." 7/25 10:32
Hey, JAMR, you are one of us now. The last comment to you is exactly the same as his "shut off" last year. The excuse then was over those who posted anonymously. Apparently now he won't talk to monikers.
You'll have to show name, address and phone number for him to answer -- IF HE HAS AN ANSWER, which is what some have wondered for a year.
Talk to us. We listen. We answer. We have fun, too.
so no school board representation from merchangtville...the omission is very telling.
I have been reading this blog for some time. It is very obvious that this merger is not about cost saving. it is about the schools and only the schools. Why doesn't Merchantville get together (merger people, and non merger people) and find a new school solution. It doesn't have to be Pennsauken but maybe Collingswood or another town with similar demographics? Seems like a no brainer to me.
"no school board representation...the omission is very telling."
What is the omission telling you? That school board members believe their time would be better spent improving our educational program and maybe finding an alternative receiving high school, such as Haddon Heights?
Is it reminding you that Merchantville residents elected the school board to run OUR school exclusively?
Does it help you to envision the disharmony that would be created if individual Board members chose to "collaborate" with a study group chosen by petitioners who want a neighboring town to absorb our student population and its tax funding?
Is it telling that Vidkun Quisling was executed for collaborating with the Third Reich in its "Final Solution".
Please tell us what it is telling you.
I read on this blog that 3 BOE members were approached, including the current President. All declined. I believe this body contains 2 former BOE members. You don't need to be one of the committee to be involved by the way. BOE members should participate regardless of how busy they are.
why is it telling? are you kidding me? this group is potentially going to make vital, critical decisions about the future of this community including the SCHOOL and there is no present school board representation.
Really?
they have all refused to participate. that doesn't tell you anything?
to me is says they don't want this study or merger to happen. to me it says it is a waste of their time. to me is also says that potentially there is no credibility in this merchantville merger commission. ex school board members will not be helpful. the state of education in 2011 for NJ is like no other time in history.
"they don't want this study or merger to happen"
Good! That is as it should be. They are elected to run OUR school, not to spend time picking another.
If you got hired at General Motors would you then study ways to have Toyota make your cars? How long do you think you would last at GM? I'd guess five minutes.
Back in the mid-1980s young women were enrolling in New Jersey colleges to be eligible for Miss New Jersey in the Miss America Pageant. One girl who enrolled in Glassboro but did not attend classes, won our State title. She was so harassed at the State Fair at Garden State Racetrack she began avoiding close contact with the public. I think her embarrassment was deserved.
In my mind our town residents should admonish our councilman for joining a committee to investigate the possible abolishment of Merchantville. He had the gall to say we cannot afford the municipal services being provided. Do we have to club him over the head to understand that he is a main contributor to high level of services at high cost? He might well spend some Tuesday evening absent from the merger committee to dig up the speed hump and new driveway apron in front of his house to take back for a refund to the Borough. He might well stop throwing up obstacles to a settlement with the TCE developer. He might try to cut some expenditures rather than concrete them over as with the eight inches of concrete all around the firehouse. There are a number of actions he could promote to save our town instead of jogging over to sit next to the big wheels at consolidation meetings.
He should be one WHO DOES NOT "want this study or merger to happen". Why isn't he?
I bet you that when Mayor North put his commission together few declined. The former Vice President of the School Board did agree to be on that commission. So 3 current board members were asked but declined for their own reasons. We know that there are 9 members of the Merchantville School Board. Why were not all the members contacted to be on this new commission? Who knows? Looks like we are not going to get an answer to that either. I think they could have worked a little harder to find someone with current knowledge of the school to be on the commission. Using Ms. Hick’s past tenure of a few months and limited attendance on the school board as an example of representation of the school is just sad at best! Maybe if Mayor Platt had made public his commission earlier people might have felt more inclined to step up. But not knowing whom you are dancing with has never been a good idea!
Cherry Hill’s commission is made up of people with current knowledge of their township and their school district. What in the world do we have?
What a mess!
If it went to a vote today in Merchantville what would happen? Just curious as to the opinion of the blog.
From talking to neighbors(St. James, Plymouth, Westminster, Greenleigh crowd) I think it would be a landslide 60-40 to merge. I am being conservative as it could even more lopsided based on my non scientific tally.
I think the merger haters fear this notion.
I have only been here 10 years and have only paid about 100K in taxes. I love that my vote counts as much as these angry lifetimers.
Wow! you Pay 10 grand a year to live in Merchantville! That's crazy!
You should move!
Lets get some thicker skins here folks, whether you are here 6 months or 60 years it really doesn't matter. Although Experience does count for something doesn't it? I am sure if you found some of the School Board members who made the decision to close our High School and enter into a Send Receive with Pennsauken they might just have a different view today.
For the record I never tried to twist Lavardera's comments or pick a fight or go on a rant. I was simply asking what many of us feel are valid questions? They should be easily answered. The old adage "It is what it is" I just want an honest answer to an honest question, that's all.
Failing to be honest is deceitful, we would not accept this from our School Board or Council, or any volunteers on any of the committees. Why should we accept that from Lavardera?
I am not picking the fight Lavardera, you put your comments out there, not me. Maybe you never took a debate class in your life, maybe you don't like people who appear to disagree with you. i am not sure of your reasons but your failure to answer my simple questio, that you obviously have the answer too leaves little faith in my heart that this process will be open, honest, and neutral.
As far as if we voted today, your straw poll is not a good indicator of things to come. People need to hear the issues not simply asked to sign a petition because its the only way our kids will get out of Pennsauken HS.
And if you think the lone councilperson from our town on the Commission is a good thing, you are sadly mistaken, he has not proven one thing to me yet in his tenure on the Council. I believe his claim to fame was speed humps.....ask him sometime how he came to decide where they were going to be put, let's see how honest he is!
answer the question. what would the straw poll results look like today. who cares what it means.
I don't really know, would be the answer to your question about the straw poll, if I had to take an educated guess on how my neighbors would vote I would say it would be 70- 30 against a merger.
What would a straw poll reveal if this question were posed: Effective next year bus K-8 children to a school outside of Merchantville, to classes larger than what they are currently in, school taxes would slightly increase.
straw polls mean nothing, thats why they are called straw polls. Issues need to be addressed by a methodical approach with all points of view, and facts revealed. Acting on impulse is never prudent in decisions of this magnitude.
Hello all. New to the blog. I hope it doesn't get to a vote. 80-20 yes to a merge in my neighborhood.
East Walnut....
I'm new to town and travel alot for work. I've lived here 3 years. First of all this idea of a blog straw pole is rediculous. Let's just have the study. My neighbors on Poplar, Myrtle, etc. all favor that. The issue isn't just schools and I have no children, but do care about education. Property taxes are killing us. Anything that can be done should be done soon. As far as a petition group selecting the committee, and that being such a problem for good ole boys, I think that's great. As a conservative black man with a long memory, sounds fine to me. How many hands have been in the cookie jar and what will independent folks turn up in their study?
The only reason folks could be this worked up about the make up of this body...
Somebody is hiding something.
Just sayin
I'll take visitors anytime to talk about all these dramatic and dire accusations. Please remove your masks before knocking on my office door. ;^)
remove your masks before knocking on my office door
Ironic, isn't it? Coming to a blog to complain about masks and announcing that he won't, what?, reveal his "facts"? until everyone says a name.
If a child should tell his teacher that he WON'T read/write until everybody else does, the teacher suspects he CANNOT read/write. So she goes to help him.
Can we do the same? Teach the soul how to express an idea in public?
I think he is afraid.
WestSideVet: As a conservative black man with a long memory...
If you think a partisan group selecting a "non-partisan" committee is a great idea, then your long memory is not nearly long enough.
Why do you think the West Maple Revitalization Task Force worked so hard to get West End residents participating? That's rhetorical. The Task Force sought representation by ALL folks affected by the outcome.
The same effort should have been applied to the group that will influence a change in local government. That is a huge responsibility ... now in partisan hands.
Do you honestly believe that a group of ex mayors would be non partisan with this type of issue? Come on...
And how many women or brown folks were on dthat group? Or are they all white men of a certain age? Looks to me like they're the good ole boys that bought an empty bank building. If you've lived here your whole life you might not realize that's not supposed to happen.
Another Courier Post article on duplication of services in government.
There is no big mystery about how the commissioners were selected. Big group of people get together, throw out suggestions, discuss the merits, make phone calls and make house calls, reach out to people on the list. The first calls went out to those who the consensus felt were the best and they were vetted to ensure there was no bias.
As we've said, we asked several school board members, but they were not all asked because other people that we felt were stronger candidates accepted before we even got to ask them.
The overtones of conspiracy here are ridiculous. The Petitioning group did the work to create the application and we were under no obligation to turn Commissioner selection into a publicly advertised process. Yet we were completely open to anybody who contributed to petitioning also contributing to vetting commissioners.
We have nothing to gain from a Cherry Hill merger that everybody else in town has. We are just like you and your neighbors -citizens in this town that want the best for it. A bad deal for Merchantville is a bad deal for all of us and we won't support it. We picked Commissioners that shared that outlook. Accusations of Partisanship are wrong, and obviously coming from people that have already made up their minds against a merge.
So sorry anonymous critics, you'll have to look elsewhere for your conspiracy. My favorite one so far is the one where the Mayor of Cherry Hill was taking marching orders from us group of petition passers. I like that story - it has a real black ops, secret society vibe to it. Do I get to wear sunglasses? :^p
But I seriously look forward to anybody making these far-out who wants to stop by my office and talk about it. I've made that offer before, and they never do. I suspect there is only one or two voices here making a stink and they don't want to reveal that. Otherwise what's there to hide. How come all the dead-set opponents of a study are anonymous?
Have a great day Merchantville!
Wow, bashing on Rosemari Hicks. You can discount her time on the board if you want. Her knowledge in HR was a big factor in bringing her in, and the connection to school board was a plus.
Look, any school board member is welcome and encouraged to be involved in the study process. Even if they don't step forward, the Study Commission will undoubtedly tap their knowledge.
Experts don't have to be on the Commission. This was Mayor North's greatest misjudgment on this. Experts don't need to sit on the Commission, rather they need to be available to the Commission to share their expertise. The most important thing for the Commissioners is an open and unbias mind on the issue. Thats what we have.
Here is another Courier Post article on Consolidation legislation in Trenton.
For all those claiming that the Petitioners somehow magically made the laws change, these past few articles make it clear that this is a statewide issue. Lawmakers around the State are starting to get very serious about making shared services and mergers happen. We can lead, and choose where we go, or be forced under the threat of lost state aid to take a deal that nobody wants.
lavardera,
no one is questioning that there is duplication. no one is questioning that it makes sense for merchantville to want to merge with another entity.
what we are questioning, and you will see us push back harder and harder,is that the merger study should not be with Cherry Hill. This is a lose lose for us. We cannot (and will not)absorb your students. We have our own concerns with meeting ayp and facilities.
you need to merge with a community where it makes the most sense. it seems to be pennsauken as you are already partially there with shared schools and services. But maybe camden or collingswood would work for your community.
we are mobilizing. with the lack of funding, cherry hill rallying against this merger, and the political infighting, hopefully this effort to merge with Cherry Hill will go no further.
Incredible commenting here, wow.
For all those that feel its a good idea to simply resolve the school issue, and that this is really about the school, its not. This is about the budget, and Merchantville's ability to stay viable. Our surplus is almost gone, and Trenton is threatening reduced aid or forced mergers.
Right now the School Board is studying a sending relationship with Haddon Heights. This is a great idea. You may not know that this study is costing in the neighborhood of 40k or our school taxes. I find it very unusual that there is so much outrage expressed by anonymous posters here about spending tax dollars on a Consolidation Study, yet not a peep about the School Study. Curious.
I hope its successful. But lets think a bit about how this may play out. Say we begin sending our grads to Haddon Heights, and say it costs no more than Pennsauken. Thats a good thing. And if its good then perhaps people won't move out of town when their kids hit 8th grade. Now we'll start sending more of our kids to High School. And some may even come out of private school to go to Haddon Heights. All good things. But we have to pay for it. And the budget is topped off right now with the few kids we send to Pennsauken.
So this is a good thing, but realize it means more taxes. And since our other town services are already cut to the bone we face a real estate market where other towns offer better services, and have lower taxes. Which means our property values continue to be depressed, and we continue to pay inordinately high taxes for inordinately low services.
A new sending agreement is great. However it fixes none of the fiscal problems that has brought on the Consolidation Study. People who say its all about the school are wrong.
Anonymous - FYI under current law Merchantville can not merge with Collingswood, or Camden. Those municipalities are not contiguous with Merchantville - they share no borders.
The current legislation proposing forced mergers or reduced aid does not revise this aspect of consolidation law. So Camden or Collingswood - impossible.
And you are completely wrong about Cherry Hill - clearly they are interested, as we have formed an application for a commission with them. If there is some secret opposition, from here it looks like you are at the center of it in your own private idaho. The Study will speak for itself as to whether it makes sense or not.
As for Pennsauken, they did not express interest in a merger. Merchantville citizens have been resisting the sending relationship for years, and our School Board is currently studying a sending relationship with another town. So a merge with Pennsauken looks like it has about as much chance as an ice cube in hell. But maybe you would like to pass a petition in Pennsauken? Good luck with that. Our group will be happy to offer you some tips.
Lavardera,
So the law can be modified. Cherry Hill is going through the motions. Did you attend the 7/18 meeting? That is just the beginning. There is a strong group in CH that does not want this merger for all the reasons outlined. We have toured your school in 1999 and it is completely unacceptable. Letter have been written to the Editor that outline these deficiencies.
It seems there will be no further movement toward a merger study for at least 1-2 years as there is no funding. No funding...no study. A huge change in leadership in CH and we have already spoken to him.
This will be over soon.
I'm with Lavradera on this. This isn't about schools for most folks. My neighbors and I are mostly concerned with property taxes and I have no children. I know people who live in Cherry Hill and pay much less in taxes. Study this option. What's the problem really? Stop whining.
Like many residents of Merchantville I'm concerned with our situation. I have a young child who will be entering school in the coming years. I'd love for her to take advantage of the Merchantville school, but I can guarantee that I won't be a resident any longer when she reaches high school if we are still sending to Pennsauken.
The school is a large concern of mine, but I recognize that we can't afford the taxes if we improve our send situation and more students take advantage. For example, if Haddon Heights was the new school I would expect that a much larger portion of eligible students would enroll. From what I understand we have significant tax savings from the fact that so many of our town's high school student don't take advantage of the free education. I believe it's in the 50-75% range, and I'm sure someone on this blog will correct me if I'm mistaken. If we improve the high school choice and more students take advantage, then our town's education tab will go up and the rise in taxes will undoubtedly get our attention.
Given that, I'd hate to not have the chance to see what our options are. Given a choice between Cherry Hill and Pennsauken (the only contiguous towns), I'm only interested in Cherry Hill. Pennsauken's school is rated very poorly at the state level and it appears to be a major driver for folks in considering a merger with Cherry Hill. That leaves the choices as (a) try and survive as an independent town and improve our send relationship, (b) merge with Cherry Hill to lock in a decent school district.
If this study happens it will be giving us, the voters, the information we need to make an informed decision. How can any of us make that choice based on speculation and assumptions? Anyone who wants to kill this study now is trying to take that choice away from us and lock us into option (a). Let the study happen so that residents of both towns can decide for themselves based on the study data, and we can make an informed decision as voters. In the end I might very well vote against a merger, but I want to explore it as a possibility.
Mr or Ms Anon, you have very little credibility at this point. Last year you told us to watch the news on Tuesday and see what happens. Nothing happened. You continuely promise that Cherry Hill is about to mobilize against and nothing happens. I doubt you really live in Cherry Hill. I was at the meeting on the 18th. No organized revolt just 5 well intentioned Cherry Hill citizens voicing concerns several times each on the microphone. Were you one of these people? I doubt it. I'll tell you what I did notice and found interesting- the Cherry Hill board of Education president nodding his head in agreement with every pro consolidation comment. Maybe their is something in this for everyone? Can you wait to see the study with the rest of us or do you just need to run your mouth prior to fact finding?
I just want to remind all of you - there are State imposed caps on school budgets and on the town budgets. They can only raise the taxes at this prescribed amount.
In light of this any new sending district has to be studied very carefully. If a rush of new students breaks the school budget and the allowable cap, then a well intentioned improvement in the sending arrangement could throw the town into default, and put us at the mercy of the Local Finance Board, just as Camden was. The result could be a merger with no vote, and no choice.
Our options are rapidly evaporating. No matter how dedicated Council may be to making the budget work, there is only so much they can do.
Be assured, its not about the school. Its about choice. The issue of the school has always been about choice. Its beyond that now - its about having a choice in the fate of the entire town.
Patrick: Anyone who wants to kill this study now is trying to take that choice away from us
Patrick's complaint about Merchantville homesteaders wanting to take his choice away reminds me of the farmer in central Jersey who sold his road frontage all around his farm to make ends meet.
When the 200-plus new residents moved in they complained about the smells of the farm. They got together and had an ordinance passed banning the farm.
Patrick moved to Merchantville knowing our situation but now complains that some of us want to take HIS CHOICE away -- the choice to disolve our 150 year-old town.
It seems to me he had a choice before he purchased here. Why should he now complain about our smell?
Springfield: the C.H. board of Education president nodding his head in agreement with every pro consolidation comment.
If you were running a five million dollar shortfall and taking a few hundred students would give you five million to balance that budget, you might be nodding your head with a smile from ear to ear as the hinge point.
AND HE TELLS US THE C.H. COMMISSIONERS ARE A NON-PARTISAN GROUP TO BE PROUD OF.
Wow!
Why so much anger and hatred, even before we have the facts at hand!??!
Seems to me that one way or another, change is inevitable. Always has and always will!
Where do you read ANGER AND HATRED, Eyes Wide Shut?
Show me the words. Then add your "English" that makes them appear to curve or hop or just stop dead.
I don't see what you see, Eyes Wide Shut. And I wrote the story.
Hi neighbors -
My comments were a general impression of the tone and emotionality reflected in many of the comments on this thread - presumably written by at least a couple of different folks.
It's not all about you "No Choice"!; but if the shoe fits....
That entire exchange directed at "Dan" was an embarrassment.
On behalf of the vast majority of us, those who might disagree but not be disagreeable, Thank You Dan - for volunteering your time, expertize and interest towards the needs of your community!
EyesShut: On behalf of the vast majority of us...Thank You Dan
Which commenter is Dan? ...and why are you using a real name against Blogger's rule if that is what you are doing?
Mville Citizen said...
Please do not specifically name or "out" people who wish to remain anonymous or use a pseudonym.
And how did you get to represent the "vast majority of us"? Another unpublic appointment committee meeting that teh public could have participated in if we had known?
You people have a world of your own, don't ya, --like antimatter--and you think everybody with eyes shut is in it.
One might assume that you don't know the history of the territory you are invading. You bust in, plant your flag on the beach, kill the natives, and then hold elections for "the vast majority of us", oblivious to what and whom you just trampled upon.
"History" isn't filed under ANGER AND HATE. It is grouped with "Philosophy" but then you wouldn't know that, recognizing only your own. Would that you could open your shut eyes.
Who's Dan?
ktfbw frequently posts about "losing local control" because there are more voters in Cherry Hill than in Merchantville.
I think that kind of analysis is very shallow and doesn't reflect the full reality of voting or governence.
For example, in Merchantville an election can be swayed by 25 people switching their votes. Currently the TCE development plans call for 53 apartments to be built. If the new residents voted for/against something that old residents opposed/supported, the new residents would win.
ktfbw, are you opposed to the TCE development on the grounds that bringing in new residents dilutes your vote?
Alice: are you opposed to the TCE development on the grounds...
I am not opposed to the Town Centre East redevelopment. After expressing interest, I was appointed to the search committee involved in drafting the guidelines for redevelopment and for selecting the redeveloper. In that process, Alice, the concerns raised by the group opposed to the AST project were negotiated with the new redeveloper, Fieldstone.
Similarly, upon expressing interest in the Planning Board and the West Maple Revitalization Task Force, I was appointed to both. The concerns of many residents about Wellwood and about the Maple/130 intersection are being addressed in one or the other of those bodies.
Involvement of interested individuals has the highest probability in small governmental units. That was true for the 13 colonies in the 1700s, for Delaware Township in 1813, and for Mechantville today. New Jersey history has been of subdividing bigger into smaller --East & West Jerseys from New York, Camden County from Gloucester, Delaware Twp. from Stockton, and Merchantville from Delaware Twp.
This proposed merger bucks 400 years of a fundamental democratic-governing principle -- local control.
Cherry Hill does not operate as a "local control" entity. It used to. Generations ago my parents and neighbors influenced the naming of Springdale Road. My mother and a few other parents had teachers replaced. I was married by the mayor in the town hall.
Today the only individual stuff you see is the hiring of the former mayor's daughter to run a passport center in the Cherry Hill Mall.
I believe Dan is the chairperson of the Merchantville commission. He is not mentioned by name in earlier comments but his position on the commission is referred to.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Best wishes to the commission for a successful project. Thank you for your service.
lavardera,
there are exceptions to the cap. it can be changed. also residents can vote for a levy above the 2%. happens all the time. good try though.
also, it is all about the schools! if merchantville had won their suit to leave pennsauken and join haddonfield 25 years ago do you think we would be having this discussion. please, don't be insulting. we know it is 99% about the schools.
for us in cherry hill, the horse isn't out of the barn. there are groups including the reform committee that have members with serious doubts.
lavardera, we are long standing CH residents. the schools are why we moved and continue to live in ch. we will not have the schools diluted with a group of students that are 50% proficient when our average is 90%. will never happen.
if you want your kids to go to cherry hill schools move to cherry hill. we have a few homes for sale in our town.
nodding his head,
take a look at the ch school budget. we gave money 500k back to the tax payers last year. there is no shorfall. the administration is managing in this tight financial environment.
the president of the board was shaking his head because that is what he does. he is one of 9 board members. the board members are very protective of their school. when have they ever opened their doors?
do you really believe the governor will give ch the merchanville aide? really? then you have not been watching and listening to our governor. the intention is to have communities absorb the other community and the state aide will be gone. wake up and smell the coffee.
So, ktbfw, to stay on point, "diluting the vote" through increased numbers of voters is not a problem for you?
I am asking if the problem for you is increased numbers of voters (and the TCE development clearly increases numbers of voters and this doesn't bother you) or if the problem is increased distance from city hall to the boundary line.
Cruiser said:
I believe Dan is the chairperson of the Merchantville commission. He is not mentioned by name in earlier comments but his position on the commission is referred to.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Dan is the alternate. George Wilkinson is serving as Chair of the Merchantville Commissioners.
EyesShut: Thank You Dan - for volunteering your time, expertize and interest towards the needs of your community!
Now we know Dan is the Alternate Merch Commission Chairman. Okay, next question. Why is Eyes Shut thanking and praising Dan on this blog when it took two comments to figure out who he is?
Third, what needs of your community has he dedicated his time to? It hasn't been written. And why does Shut Eyes say the alternate chairman is embarrassed?
There certainly seems to be an in-group and and out-group on this merger business and apparently Shut Eyes has determined the in-group is the "vast majority".
Pray that Shut Eyes will not be appointed Research Expert.
Staying on your point, Alice, about redevelopments diluting the vote which was the farmer-out-of-business message of No Choice a few comments back, my thinking is that smaller populations are more easily apprised about local issues that could affect them.
If I were to live in Tavistock, it would take talking to half of the seventeen voters to present an issue. In Cherry Hill, I don't know, it might take convincing seventeen thousand voters.
Where I voted for a quarter of a century half of 235 votes would get one what he wanted but I didn't need anything because 90 percent of the residents believed the same ideology as I.
Alice, the case in point that answers your question is the petition group. Here, in the small town, the petitioners gathered a petition to present to our local government. They needed 350 signers; they claim getting 700. But in Cherry Hill the petitioners either did not run a petition effort or they failed in that effort. Instead, they used politics.
Many might say that political maneuvering is an honorable approach. Perhaps it is. Personally, I believe it shuts the door to the average Joe like me. So I think it best to keep Merchantville a small, independent governance.
Not sure that "No choice" should be opining on who could be a "research expert"; after being stymied by my reference to the treatment of Dan - and then misguidedly complaining that I've "outed" someone.
Maybe one should consider actually reading the thread that they are "contributing" to.
RESEARCH HINT: Scroll back a few days to around 7/25/11.
Looks like over reliance on Google and the Cable News culture have claimed another victim.
ktbfw,
Small in population? Small in geographic size? You are hedging.
Cherry Hill is small, it is just larger than Merchantville, which is larger than Tavistock.
I think you are saying that small towns make people more involved? But is that really true? In Merchantville, for example, they have trouble finding people to run for office, volunteer for events. People complain that they don't know what the gov't is up to.
As to the idea that smaller groups will have the same "ideology", where is that coming from? Are you saying the boro gov't has "the same ideology" as the residents? Based upon what?
EyesShut: Scroll back a few days to around 7/25/11.
Oh Wharton Dan! Sorry, I didn't make the connection between the Dans.
I reread Wharton Dan's comment. It was about his own educational program ... and later he threw in a hedging apology. Nothing about service to community.
Interesting. The word verification for this comment is "angst". The computers have joined our conversations.
So we come back to your comments, Shut Eyes. You referenced "embarrassment"? Having a Master's degree Dan should have known that talking about one's college education in an undereducated town will yield some stone throwing. I thought he came out unscathed but, then, I missed the deleted comment. Maybe we should ask lavardera; the previous deletion was his over calling out somebody. And what about Carbide Tip? [7/25/2011 7:09 PM] He was welcoming and generous to Dan almost to a fault.
Where did you pick up the "service to community" points attributed to Dan, Shut Eyes? Your source seems as amorphous as your "anger and hate" perceptions. Please continue with what you were saying.
ktbfw said: "But in Cherry Hill the petitioners either did not run a petition effort or they failed in that effort. Instead, they used politics."
Merchantville boro council also passed a resolution which would have had the same effect as the CH resolution.
The Merchantville resolution was in response to the consolidation-study petition signed by residents.
I want to follow up on another point you raised earlier, Alice.
In Merchantville, for example, they have trouble finding people to run for office, volunteer for events. People complain that they don't know what the gov't is up to.
I agree with you especially if you think that non-involvement is caused by residents being too busy as others have suggested or by disinterest. I see both of that.
What concerns me in this present situation is the idea that people can just buy their way out rather than trying to work through the problems at home.
Suppose instead of recruiting Senator Beach (sp?) to rewrite the merger law the petitioners had asked him to support changing the school sending/receiving regulations. And, too, the petitioners could support school board candidates who would address student proficiencies earnestly in Merchantville School.
That change is hard work. Selling us all out is a lot easier.
ktbfw--
"The Merchantville resolution was in response to the consolidation-study petition signed by residents."
So? The resolution would have supplanted the petition and ended the petitioners application. Isn't that the similar to the "politics" you decried in CH?
It would be nice in any town of any size if more people got involved. But it seems to me that your belief that the size (population? geographic, which is it?) of the town drives the involvement is not founded upon the facts of our town.
The objections you raise don't effect the value of the study. I thought they might possibly raise some issues to be explored in any merger, but so far, as you have expressed it, they don't.
If you are indeed concerned about "local control" of the school then I suggest you think of a better explanation of what you mean by the phrase. It seems to be no more than a catch-phrase at this point. I know that I have issues I would like the study to address (especially issues of planning and zoning and what is to be done with our publically owned properties).
Finally, suppose I accept your argument that parents can work to make the elementary and middle school better right now. My question is, what stops them from being involved in the school after a merger? An elementary school is a pretty small unit. Wouldn't that be "local" enough to promote involvement in your view?
I recently read an article about consolidation of services in a North jersey area, a preliminary feasability study was approved in the ball park of 40K, somehow the study morphed into costing in excess of 640K. When questioned the authors of the study commented "You get what you pay for"
My question is does anyone have a clue what a study might cost? Would there be an initial study on very basic and broad issues, and then if still interested a much more thorough study? This is where my concern lies, the thoroughness of the study. As an analogy I would want the 640K study, but I don't know where the funds would come from. I don't think we could do a half ass study or something on the cheap and expect the voters of this town or Cherry Hill to make an informed decision.
As soon as I can refind the article I will post the link on here.
Alice: suppose I accept your argument that parents can work to make the elementary and middle school better right now.
You jumped to "parents". That was not my argument. I had suggested that the petitioners could support school board candidates who would address student proficiencies.
Suppose half of the 700 petitioners got involved in running slates of school board members who pledge to "turn the school around". In two years there would be a majority and in three, a full board selecting leaders and personnel, funding programs and negotiating with power units all to the goal of improving student academic proficiency.
Alice, last fall a committee of well-educated volunteers --nearly all professionals in education-- introduced more than a dozen improvement ideas, most of which were operational elsewhere, but our board found "no-go" problems with every proposal. They would not even consider pilot programs to work out kinks. Their interest was funding, not school improvements.
The petitioners could reverse that mindset if they wanted to ... and create successes before this merger takes place.
Now, to your point that the same or similar could be done after a merger. I suggest it would not be possible. Cherry Hill is too big and too successful for the mandates our school needs. Merchantville residents have a perfect opportunity to present a mandate for a school overhaul, complete with new administration, to create the best educational environment in the State.
Did you know that educators, psychologists and psychiatrists from around the world visited the Trenton Normal School for Teachers in the 1880s for ideas on advancing their respective disciplines? Binet developed his intelligence scale at the Vineland School.
Big things happen in little places if one thinks big. Merchantville is a little place.
ktfbw--"...complete with new administration,..."
Merger would give the school a new administration. One you admit is successful. What possible basis do you have for saying former MES students would be, what?, ignored...left out of the CH school system?
You are making no arguments at all against the study and very weak ones against merger.
It seems to me there are always opportunities for people to be involved as you describe--especially in the school system.
You really seem to be saying that the fact of a Study Commission may discourage others from pressing for school reform in Merchantville. In that case, you are not making any argument against the study or merger itself. You are arguing against a failure of the community to pursue your suggestions.
I applaud your interest in school reform. But you are misdirecting your energies when you attack the merger study over what you see as the Merchantville school's weaknesses.
so when does the study begin? tomorrow? 2013?
lavardera, where are we with funding? i am sure we have the funding for the study. right?
The school Board is spending 40 k to look a a send receive with Haddon Heights that will take over 2 years and much more cost in litigation. I assume you anti study people are upset about this and letting the school board know.
Board is spending 40 k to look a a send receive with Haddon Heights that will take over 2 years and much more cost in litigation.
Where does this information come from other than your pen?
Alice: What possible basis do you have for saying former MES students would be...
Two situations concern me. One, C.H.'s school nearest Merch us does not perform much differently from ours. Now, you will reply that the Central Office announced a $5 million special project to remediate the low performance but when one looks at the details it becomes apparent that the Board had cut nearly that much at the Governor's first threat to reduce funding and then after the funding came through, the Board hired back its personnel with trumpets blowing about it being this special remediation project. That's the first disappointment.
The second concern is the percentage. The number of students performing poorly in C.H. is such a small percentage of the whole population --even if Merchantville students are dumped into that school-- that the most likely scenario would be for school personnel to increase the "traditional helps" that are largely ineffective with a disadvantaged core population.
Merchantville School could create a model reform of its instructional program that one reads about in the educational journals. I doubt that C.H. could ... certainly not through its latest action of hiring back employees.
On the whole you are right in judging my frustration. Last winter I gave up on our school board. I found them --nice people, all of them-- to be a reflection of the parental community. The parents who are active like what they have and do not want it changed.
As to the merger, well, I am resigned to it and can certainly see the rainbows some folks are chasing to find the gold.
I predict the merger will be similar to the computer programs the Weather Bureau uses in long-range forecasts. The first indicators ten days or two weeks out are always large and extreme. As each day passes the computers trim those numbers back towards the mean as the probabilities become more certain.
My estimate is that the consolidation commission will project significant pluses for merging which will diminish over time as the merge takes place, and end up being not much different from what we have now. We just will lack local control of events. I can live with that. If I can't, I'll move.
A few years ago I was walking down the street with the mayor when the mayor of Pennsauken stopped by. With a smile I told him the taxes were so high in Merchantville that I would be moving to Pennsauken. Our mayor responded, "I'll help you pack." Actually, I like parts of Pennsauken. The town is well run from what I can see --rental housing inspections are really thorough-- and it is relatively wealthy with all of its commercial and industrial enterprises.
I forgot to tell the blog that the West Maple Task Force got Camden City to power wash the graffiti off the walls and sidewalk of the old liquor warehouse at Rte 130 and Maple.
The Camden city crew was in the midst of washing off the markings when the alleged owner drove up, told the crew it was artwork they were destroying and he threatened to sue the city if they didn't stop the cleaning.
Fifty years ago the approach pattern to Philadelphia International Airport required aircraft to first pass over Toms River. My special girlfriend at the time was pleased with that path because it allowed her to pause for a moment in her flight-attendant's job and look out a port to check if I were still sailing the bay or had begun my scramble to get to Philly to meet her.
It might have been in the 1980s (?) when the FAA changed the flight route across Jersey from Toms River to PHL in response to complaints from towns like Haddonfield. FAA decided to run the five-mile wide flight path straight up Route 70, probably speculating that Cherry Hill was too busy growing to notice four-engine jets descending over the town every minute of every day. I think Route 70 is still the flight path today.
As is always the case with serendipity --a quiet surprise-- you mergers probably haven't thought about opening Merchantville to aircraft opening their wheel bays over our houses when we become Cherry Hill, the non-complaining town. You could look at it as a plus being able to spot your children arriving home from college for the holidays.
LMAO, now if we merge we will become the flight path for the airport? The anti study people are really reaching now.
The more they speak, the more you can see that will do or say almost anything to stop you from having a choice here.
Test
why would anyone complain about the school board spending money on a feasability study? They are only doing what most of the community wants, a change in our High School. The only people against would be the consolidation people who have hidden interests.
"JAAMR" -- Is that a stutter or are you just excited about your logical question?
Hold on a minute. We have not heard from the fount whether or not or how much our school board did spend on a study about a send/receive with Haddon Heights.
As I remember the inquiry was put on hold pending H.H. finding a new superintendent.
Gail knows this stuff. Where is she?
And what information would be needed? The receiver says, yes, we can fit ... what was their number? 225 students ... and we say, okay, let's start with next year's graduating eighth grade. Do you think we can get 300 merger petitioners to meet with Senator Beach to pry us out of the Pennsauken agreement legislatively?
What feasibility study? The mergers didn't buy a feasibility study.
If the school board has recently spent money on a high school consolidation study, I believe it emmanates from the anti-consolidation attitude of most of the school board. Such a study could be useful as a smoke screen to infer that there is a viable alternative to the high school situation which does not require consolidation. In my years on the school board there were regular discussions of changing the sending-receiving relationship to Haddon Heights. Nothing ever developed because when it came down to the formalities of starting the process and signing documents, etc., HH would not deliver.
Changing a send-receive is very difficult. Under the best of conditions (principally meaning Pennsauken would not object), it would take several years.
It would be a far more expensive solution for Merchantville than a complete Cherry Hill merger.
If study money has really been spent, where is the study? Is a copy of it available? On-line? At the school board office?
Is it true that at the meeting with Cherry Hill a Merchantville resident who is part of the consolidation group stated that if the school was able to enter into a new send receive she would vote for that as oppossed to a merger with Cherry Hill?
Cruise,
nothing like being in touch with what's going on. Glad you know that current board members are anti consolidation and they would spend money frivoulously just as a smoke screen. Talk about drinking the kool aid.
OutOfGas: Talk about drinking the kool aid.
What does that cliche, "drinking the Kool Aid", refer to? I hope not to the Jim Jones People's Temple in Jonestown, Guyana, in which 900+ religious members committed mass suicide or were murdered by consuming poison-laced Kool Aid in 1978.
Same reference?
Curent school board members have told me they are anti-consolidation or have expressed that sentiment in public. While I do not agree with them, I understand where they are coming from. Such a position is very much in concert with the long-term prior behaviors of the board.
So, where is the study report from the rumored HH study? If money was spent, there should be a report.
since these school board members have confided in you that they are anti consolidation maybe you should ask them about the study and not attempt to undermine those volunteers with you ASSumptions!
Cruiser: I understand where they are coming from.
You do not have to add "long-term prior behaviors". It is the responsibility of board members to vigorously support the entities to which they were elected. Every group has its oath of office.
My assumption --here's opportunity for our vulgar contributor to insert his wit-- is that the commenter who introduced the fictitious study thought that was necessary to make his argument. Those who lie do not realize that just doing so destroys their cause.
I want to ask Cruiser a question about something else. Our Master Plan prepared by Regan Design Group after extensive public discussion meetings calls for making the downtown stretch of buildings along West Park Avenue a redevelopment zone for 3-story construction. I understand that 23 West Park Corporate Center (which includes the corporate office behind the retail stores on Park and a very large parking lot) is in receivership and now controlled by its bank.
Should the Borough take advantage of the insolvency by declaring the area a redevelopment zone? For several years, Cruiser, you have advocated dense development for enhanced ratables. What say you now?
The largest investment for a vast majority of Americans is their home. I am pretty confident that that applies to Merchantville residents. I have spoken to half a dozen realtors about this, and every single one was crystal clear. Property values would go up significantly if Merchantville merged with Cherry Hill. They spoke of the schools as the largest factor. But also spoke of the services and stability of Cherry Hill as another contributor. Another interesting point was they could still sell the things that make Merchantville special. The walkability of the town. The small town ambience etc.
I am so relieved that someone really addressed property values. Look at what two beautiful Victorian homes are listed at recently. Really, they will go for less than $250k. It worries us as they are following the sold price of the Victorian that sold on Maple Ave. recently. Yes, there is no doubt in our minds that a merger with Cherry Hill will help this downhill slide. People are running scared with revaluations and selling out - part of it is the market conditions as well. But it is obvious a merger will help property values. Forget about taxes not going up - the revaluation will more than take care of that long before a merger will.
But what does cherry hill have to gain? Please tell me one thing we will gain other than a lot of headaches and non proficient students.
Money? There is no way CH would get the Merchantville school aide. It has already been researched. The aide will go into the state's pocket and CH will need to absorb the cost.
guys, the train hasn't left the station.
I know I don't know what I'm talking about and their are probably benefits to Cherry Hill that I'm not aware of. Maybe I'll just stop speculating and wait for the study to be complete. Sorry for ranting.
Cherry Hill will gain about $160 million in ratables, perhaps more depending on how the revaluation is handled in a merger situation.
With those ratables will come additional costs for services but those costs for services will not be nearly as high as what Merchantvile now pays for those services.
Cherry Hill also gets a victorian village with a walkable downtown. Those ratables that cruiser mentions will surely go up as property values will rise. Merchantville will become the most desirable part of the west end.
I have no basis for this other than hear say. I have heard from several people that Merchantville's additional population will allow Cherry Hill to cross a critical population threshold that will grant them access to more state and federal funding. That would be a huge plus for Cherry Hill depending on the numbers.
tear it up guys.
Ratables yes. But is will not be enough to compensate for the additional costs. Merchantville is complaining about costs/taxes now? how will that change.
victorian village. really? we're cherry hill. our focus is education and we are also focused on education.
the additional population does nothing to cross a threshold for state and federal funding.
there are two matters that the merger group didn't count on.
1. there will be a new mayor very soon in ch. mayor platt is not running for reelection. we have already had many conversations with the new mayor.
2. there is NO funding for the study. cherry hill will not be paying into this study and the state has said "no". the group is looking to do fundraising for the $100k. anyone want to contribute?
we will be talking about this until 2015 which is ok because merchantville talked about their haddonfield school arrangement for 20 years. how did that ever work out?
I guess we need the consolidation study if all we have to go by is the research of the last anonymous who has talked to the new mayor before the election (interesting that C.H. should bother with the election if the new mayor is already doing his job -- of course I always thought that there was never a mayor named Platt because only Beachum or Meachum talked to anyone), has found out there will not be any state funding, has predetermined that the study will cost $100K, and knows the petitioners are fund raising at this very minute.
On second thought, who needs a study. Let's let Anonymous do everything. He is so ahead of us all.
k.t.b.f.w. "of course I always thought that there was never a mayor named Platt because only Beachum or Meachum talked to anyone"
Are you referring to Dan Keashen, Mayor Platt's Chief of Staff?
I wanted to apologize for my post last night. After heavy drinking I somehow think it's funny to come on the blog and pretend to be a Cherry Hill resident hellbent against Merchantville. The truth is that I don't know the next mayor of Cherry Hill or anyone there, because I really don't live there. If you don't hear from me again, that will mean that I'm back in the program.
Just found out who the anon is who posts as a Cherry Hill resident. Can't believe he would stoop to this type of game playing. How the mighty have fallen.
Are you referring to Dan Keashen
Three Dans: Wharton Dan, Shut Eyes Dan and now Keachum Dan. After the merge we'll have to rename the place Danville.
Let me switch to another light topic, our anonymous commenter who won't shut up until we acknowlege one of his characters.
Just found out who the anon is
Good work, son! Keep it a secret until after your nap.
For the record:
I am a teacher at Haddon Heights High (3HS) school and can confirm that the study has begun. I myself met the man doing the first phase of the study, and, if memory serves, he did his evaluation of the academic aspects of the school back in mid-spring. Evidently, the report was very good about the academics at 3HS, but the concern was, as always, the financial ability of MVL to attend. Anyway, if what I recall is correct, there are two other legs of the study, and the academic one was just the first.
Our new superintendent in Heights seems very interested in taking on a sending agreement with MVL, especially since school age population from the other 2 sending districts has gone down.
Obviously, I'm biased because I work there, but I'd be happy to have my children attend 3HS. It actually may be a better fit for MVL than Pennsauken since it's a smaller school environment, much like MES. That being said, I don't know the financials, and certainly don't know if MVL can afford it.
--Stacey
I'm getting tired of all the talk about schools. I'm a senior citizen on a fixed income and I signed the petition because I want property tax relief. We should study anything that might help seniors like me.
ktbfw,
Thank you for your reasonable answer. One of the persistent issues that NCLB exposed was the failure of even the most successful school districts to educate minority and poor students (not necessarily the same thing).
I don't see this problem being resolved easily no matter what happens with merger or the send receive.
"study anything that might help seniors"
Now you want help. Had you supported excellent schools when you were out doing whatever you did as a productive adult, you would have in this town now well-educated, prosperous neighbors who would be paying a greater share of the tax burden you are complaining about.
Education is the most important thing for communities to provide. It's the true retirement investment for everyone.
Too bad you are tired of hearing about our neglected school. Signing the petition expecting tax relief instead of doing something about the school is just another bad decision.
"Forget about taxes not going up - the revaluation will more than take care of that long before a merger will."
A revaluation redistributes the tax burden based upon value. It does not "raise taxes". The amount of the levy is the amount of taxes that have to be paid. The reval will say who pays them.
Since we have not had a revaluation in over 10 years, most people will see an increase in their assessments. If everyone's assessment went up by the same percentage, no one would see a tax increase.
If your increase is greater than your neighbor's you will see a tax increase along with your assessment increase. Take comfort in the fact that you have been underpaying your taxes for years.
County taxes work the same way but on a macro scale.
Generally speaking, larger homes will pay higher taxes than smaller homes. So if you are currently in a large house and pay lower taxes than your smaller neighbors, you will likely see an increase in your share of the taxes.
"...large house and pay lower taxes than your smaller neighbors, you will likely see an increase " ... she says with a Cape Cod smile.
Every time you explain that a revaluation does not increase taxes overall I feel compelled to footnote your comment with the piece of history which reports that the tax rate "adjustment" at the time of the revaluation is often smaller than enough to create a zero change.
MVL won't be able to afford to send all the kids that will want to attend Haddon Heights in a send/receive because the number of kids that will sign up to go there will far outnumber the kids that go to Pennsauken. Merchantville has been using those high school dollars for kids not going to high school for their advantage - what else have they been doing with all of that money. That means the well is dry, dry, dry. It's a shame the school board wasted $40k for this particular study. MVL will continue the downslide it has been on since the recession and with another recession looming, it will only get worse. Pack it up and hope we merge with Cherry Hill. That is one study that can't get done quickly enough and that won't be a waste of money. And you can't blame the seniors for signing the petition for their own reasons - they are quite entitled to do so.
WastedStudy: MVL won't be able to afford to send all the kids that will want to attend Haddon Heights...
Do it one year at a time. Start with next year's 8th grade class. They go to the new receing school. All those in Pennsauken stay in Pennsauken. The following year, the next 8th grade graduates go ... and so on for the four years of transition.
What? It's about moving the tax dollars not the physical aspect of it! The money won't be there - it's a buget buster. If 30 of the kids that graduate 8th grade choose to use the public school - say Haddon Heights - instead of the 8 or so that typically use Pennsauken that's 24 more kids using that money. It's not there, just not there!!! They are counting on still more people using private schools, makes no sense at all. A lot less people will use private school. A lot less.
I'll say what most people are thinking. The current situation is just fine. We have the best police department anywhere. That's what counts. Our school does a great job and our high school relationship with Pennsauken is ideal. Pennsauken high school provides a decent education and people unhappy with that can pay their share to educate their children. A switch to a more name brand fancy highschool will leave us all with the tab. Let's have the yuppy petitioners pay their own way!
Most people are NOT thinking the current situation is FINE! You live in a bubble. Our police force will be taken from us by the county - do you read a newspaper or watch the news? Maybe that is why you blindly think everything is fine. Our relationship with Pennsauken just plain sucks. Time for change, like it or not, as MOST of us not only think but believe!!! Oh, by the way, the term yuppie (which you can't even spell) went out the window about 10years ago - so obviously you are way behind the curve just based on your verbage.
Words of Wisdom, but few will listen:
"Nothing will be taken away by the County, nor the State, nor the Federal Government, nor will any merger be forced upon us without our consent or us giving it away"
Let's stop the fear mongering and speculation. Is it fair to say that we will not be able to afford a new send/receive without the feasability study?
Let's see how the school board makes out with this issue.
"Pennsauken high school provides a decent education..."
By what measure?
"...and people unhappy with that can pay their share to educate their children."
Not following this. Can I take my share of the send-recieve and spend it elsewhere?
If anything actually happens with send/ receive, I credit the petitioners for getting everyone off their duff. I've lived here a very long time and that issue has rarely seen momentum, however, let's all keep in mind that Pennsauken will likely sue and HH would then walk away. Sound familiar?
yes. give the school board the opportunity to move forward with haddon heights. this is a way to preserve our town and local control and getting a new HS send/receive. the best of both worlds.
We believe a new send/receive with HH will never work just like the previous post. There will be a lawsuit. And the school board has to prove that if every child who wants to enroll at HH wants to, the funds will be there (they won't be). It's going to be the same battle as Haddonfield many moons ago. Let it go and suck up the $40k on the study. Our school board is just smoke and mirrors trying to preserve an old system that won't work. Fortunately, some of us see through it all.
Here is an inquirer article about Wenonah Council likely to end their police force and join another town.
Those who are against a Study because of a desire to retain our Police Force have to realize that there is an overwhelming trend emerging. We'll soon have pressure to join a county force as well, and Police remain our single greatest expense on the Borough Budget. Its unlikely that Merchantville will be able to maintain an independent force.
Police are generally the biggest part of any budget at the municipal level. I think it is way to early to be jumping ship here. To maintain the same level of services we do now will cost just as much, if you want to reduce services you can reduce costs, but I don't feel that small reduction would be worth it. We would save $200 a year or so. Let's keep our eyes open and think things through logically not playing tit for tat with point for or against consolidation. It does amaze me how you know all these things and can predict what will happen in the future.
I keep reading people on both sides talk about how if we had a send receive with a better high school, more kids would choose to attend it therefore raising costs.
I am a simple man, I see things simply. Doesn't this shine the light on the fact that our town, and its current send receive situation offers its citizens a crappy school that a majority choose not to attend?
How can that be justified as good no matter what side of the merger fence you are on. To me it says that our town has been letting the citizens down for a long, long time.
Its time for a change. Everyone wants the very best education for their children. If Merchantville is the shining beacon of the great American town that the anti merger people praise so much, why do they accept the fact that they off the citizens lower than par education opportunities?
It just sickens me....
No predictions Great Karmac, just my opinion.
what about the citizens of pennsauken or camden? do you believe they are all happy with their public schools?
you are correct. it is very simple. move to the town where you want your children educated. if you decide to reside in CH you get the CH schools. If you CHOOSE to live in Merchantville, you get Pennsauken. Move somewhere else if you are unhappy or be content with where you live and the schools in that town.
it is that simple.
Lavardera: ...have to realize that there is an overwhelming trend emerging.
It sounds exciting but the facts do not support lavardera's claim. How many years ago did Medford Lakes consider eliminating its police force and contracting out to Medford Twp but then voted it down in a referendum? Sharing night time coverage across borders and sharing backup protection has been going on in various places for decades.
Sharing backup with reduced night shifts was proposed to Council right here in Merchantville a few years ago. Some residents believe the Pennsauken police force --with its presence passing through Merchantville many times a day-- would be a good police system to merge with.
Such considerations rise and fall. If lavardera wants to think of Winonah, with half our population, is defining "an overwhelming trend emerging", well, we will let him think that. We remember what he says, that he gives only an opinion, not a prediction.
But now that he has raised the point, replacing the Merchantville police with Pennsauken services would be far more efficient and cost friendly than the Cherry Hill alternative. Pennsauken's force is on our streets now and Pennsauken's coverage per capita is almost a match to ours whereas Cherry Hill's per capita coverage is closer to half ours.
Lavardera will not champion that overwhelming trend emerging whatever its logic.
The founding of Merchantville isn't much different from the founding of our nation. The founding fathers were guided by the lord. Its no accident.
If certain residents don't like the situation, what gives them the audacity to reshape it? Accept it or move on. We've always had a high turnover rate in town, because it's reasonable to move on when that is your best option, rather than fight to reshape what doesn't belong to you.
Without endorsing the last contributor's take on immutability of the founding of our nation and Merchantville, let me suggest that we ask Alice what is today's mobility rate of American families. I remember eight years being the average length of ownership, at least in good times, before this deep recession. Up until recently the military and my mother skewed the family-stay data. Military reassignments came every two years and my mother like a time clock moved every 18 months for 93 years, 80% of which required my muscle power.
I'll tell ya nobody is moving in the rental market except back to cheaper.
"Some residents believe the Pennsauken police force --with its presence passing through Merchantville many times a day-- would be a good police system to merge with."
My recollection is that the "some residents" did not include anyone on boro council.
In fact, I think the "some residents" could have met in a phone booth with room for everyone to sit, when they had such things.
Not that the idea wasn't/isn't worth exploring.
"If certain residents don't like the situation, what gives them the audacity to reshape it?"
umm..... Democracy?
I just love the way this poster cites the founders of our nation, and then reprimands citizens for pursuing the democratic process! Perhaps they think the founding fathers should have just moved to mexico if they did not like the deal in the 13 colonies? That would have turned out great - no.
Lavardera: they think the founding fathers should have just moved to mexico
There is a line in the sand that you have missed, lavardera.
One might use democratic "reshaping" tools up to the point, but not including, of dissolving the government being reshaped. Beyond that point there is war (which the founders chose) with all its risks and consequences.
The commenters are telling you they think your petition group is close to the line.
http://www.cherryhill-nj.com/government/departments/tax-offices/breakitdown.asp
Taxes will go down?
Lets look up the same extensive breakdown on the Merchantville website.
Whoops, its not available... We can't really make a comparison can we?
Actually, if you received you tax bill recently just like I did you can easily make the comparison. Also notice that we currently do not pay a Fire District Tax. It would appear on the surface that if my current home where in Cherry Hill I would pay MORE in taxes.
It appears to me that I would see almost a 2k drop if I were in cherry hill. Lets do this.
2K? Really? That would put your taxes in line with Pennsauken.
It appears to me you are full of it.
Lets not do this and say we did!
My Cherry Hill neighbors down the street from me pay much less in property taxes for similar homes. What's wrong with studying this option? Why so resistant to taking a look at this?
This appeared on Merchantville Facebook page:
The Board of Education invites you to attend a critical issues input session to gather information to set criteria for the new District Superintendent. To encourage the open discussion no BOE members will be in attendance during the sessions.
Please plan to attend one of two sessions scheduled on Thursday, 9/1/11 or 9/8/11 at 7:00 p.m. in the Merchantville Library.
For more information please call the Board Office at (856) 663-1091.
Let's do this. The excuses and case senarios not to are old, tired and full of it!
"case senarios not to are old"
Are you referring to the Pennsylvania Dutch addage Too Soon Olt, Too Late Smart by chance?
"My Cherry Hill Neighbor" Not sure who your neighbor is or what the assessed values are of both of your homes, but it appears clear to me if you take the current assessed value of your home in Merchantville and extrapolate the numbers that were posted on the Cherry Hill website, it is evident that taxes will NOT decrease.
I wonder if you could extrapolate that data from a study?
Im sure a study would tell you what we already know, but lets spend the 100K anyway...
Absolutely not. You seem to have done all the analysis, and data mining. I trust your point of view completely. Thank you!
So we would pay the same taxes with a better school district? Sounds good, sign me up!
I'm in as well!
Nice to think that every year dozens of neighbors around town won't have to move away because they can't afford to pay for private tuition.
A stable population is good for all of us!!
No reference to the Pennsylvania Dutch. That's too weird and corny. Just saying it straight up like it is.
holus: "neighbors around town won't have to move away because they can't afford to pay for private tuition."
Nobody sells his house and moves for a public high school education, paying 6 percent sales fee, 6 percent purchase fee, settlement costs at both ends, taxes, mortgage fees, legal fees, inspection/engineering fees, and timing it all in order to avoid a bridge mortgage and its costs ... in a market with lag time over a year.
Get real! It's obvious you went to high school in the local receiving district.
"Nobody sells his house and moves for a public high school education..."
I did.
Okay, then we don't need to merge. We can just distribute out-of-area real estate brochures to 8th graders for Mom and Dad.
kwadz, you also moved to the Capital area for a stint and if I remember correctly you said upon returning that you would have moved to Cherry Hill (where you were raised) but couldn't afford it at the time BUT were saving your pennies and would move before you kids entered school. Wasn't that elementary school? And didn't you say you jog around the Cooper River Park rather than the Merchantville bike path?
I'm not sure you ever collected your Merchantville credentials ... at least not those issued by our "true" residents.
Glad to see you got resettled and your house sold -incidentally, didn't you say you were going to C.H. even if your Merch house did not sell right away. And that reminds me, you came back to Merchantville because the house was still available or in the family or something allowing an easy reconnection, right? I'm not spilling the beans. All of this you had put on the blog sometime back ... when praising Merchantville as a little, friendly community that you preferred.
I have not looked at the register but I suspect you don't count among the minuscule number who might sell their home for the kids' H.S. experiences. You are/were listed with those marked as having gypsy in their blood type.
Yes, I did move (for work) to DC for a year and then moved back to MVL. I loved living in MVL and used the bike path for jogging until my mileage surpassed that which was possible by looping the path several times. Therefore, I was one of the residents hoping for an extension of the current path across Cove Rd. to the Pennsauken side and with Pennsauken's cooperation, a continuance into Maple Shade for us higher mile runners.
Anyway, I still own that house in Merchantville and hope to keep it through retirement if we can keep good tenants this time. We needed a bigger house and had Merchantville been in a better school district, we would have loved to have stayed. My wife and I were both sad to leave the town since we loved it so much, but we knew it was best for our children so that they wouldn't get caught up in the school district issue. I really thought it would have been possible to orchestrate a change in the high school situation before we had kids, but I was overly optimistic.
Well, I guess you consider a gypsy someone who lived in Cherry Hill for 20 straight years, Merchantville for 6 straight years with a temporary relocation for employment, and then back to Cherry Hill for potentially the next 40 years. Although, maybe we will move back to MVL in 20+ years after our children are finished their schooling.
I live on a block with 10 houses. During the 20 years I've lived here 4 families have moved to have access to another public high school. Two to Haddonfield, one to Moorestown, one to Maple Shade. I've known many others who did not live on my block who have done the same. This kind of flight does great harm to our community, no doubt.
OK, So Kwadz counts as one who moved because of the school...Well, sorta.
Who are all these other "dozens" of families that are moving because of the lack of a high school?
How many families of the recent graduation class of Merchantville School have moved this summer so their children can go to a different public school?
and kwadz moved to cherry hill because he wanted the cherry hill public schools.
note to merchantville citizens: if you want your kids to go to cherry hill schools, mopve to cherry hill. I can name 10 merchantville families (and i don't even live in merchantville) that moved in the last two years because they wanted their kids to go to another public HS.
move if you want your kids to go to another school. please don't continue to ask another town to save you.
Hey, everybody has stories of their neighbors (who become their best friends after leaving) who moved for one reason or another -- the cops pick on their kids, don't like the "politicians", the train makes too much noise or the fire siren and now the high school is too bad since the petitioners walked the town.
Let's see, yes, it was in 1969 I met a young couple raised in Merchantville but at that moment headed for Medford, leaving the inherited Merchantville house up for sale, and on their way with three kids because ...why?... because Merchantville was going to the Big Burning "H". It was caused by the Pennsauken people moving across 130 if I remember correctly.
Nice couple. Dad became a Medford cop and Mom probably had a fourth kid, I'll bet. She always had an alluring glint in her eye.
How long has it been since they judged Merchantville as having gone to the Burning H? 42 years? They must be retired now. Wonder if they would return here to live out the rest of their time. Probably not. They say ya can't go back. So true.
So let me get this right... If you are not happy with where you live for whatever reason you sell your home and move someplace that better fits your life. Well that makes sense.
I don't think you will get too many arguments that most of us would like to improve the High School situation. For whatever reason the consolidation group has become fixated that this is the only solution and that the only way to determine this is to have a study. I have read that taxes will go down and that this isn't about the high school. It never ceases to amaze me how people will bend the truth and lie just to make their argument better, or to scare people. Let's stick to the facts at hand taxes will increase if we consolidate. The town will fundamentally change. If you are OK with this then good for you, if your not then good for you also. I still have a hard time placing any faith in a group of people that were not ELECTED by a simple majority of the Merchantville residents. In my opinion when the law was changed it fundamentally goes against every principle this country was founded upon. Politics makes strange bedfellows and there sure is a lot of strangeness going on around here.
I live on a block with 14 houses and in the past 21 years no one has moved because of the high school issue.
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